The Assembly met at 13:30 with the Llywydd (Elin Jones) in the Chair.

I call Members to order.

1. Questions to the Minister for Finance and Trefnydd

The first item on our agenda this afternoon is questions to the Minister for Finance, and the first question is from Jayne Bryant.

The Health and Social Care Portfolio

Jayne Bryant AC: 1. What additional budget allocations will the Minister provide to the health and social care portfolio to support people diagnosed with severe mental impairment as part of the Welsh Government's budget for 2020-21? OAQ54552

Rebecca Evans AC: Through schemes such as the council tax reduction scheme, we are committed to supporting people with severe mental impairment. I'll be publishing our budget proposals for 2020-21, including for health and social services, on 19 November.

Jayne Bryant AC: Thank you, Minister. I'm really pleased that Welsh Government is leading the way to ensure that those living with a severe mental impairment diagnosis can access this vital council tax discount. It's very welcome that this is in partnership with the money-saving expert, Martin Lewis, and I think this is something that will really resonate with people. Prior to this approach, one of the major downfalls of this discount scheme was that nobody knew about it, and I hope that anyone applying for this discount will have it backdated to the point of their diagnosis. Can you outline what is being done at a Welsh Government level to ensure that people are aware of the support available, and, furthermore, what is the Welsh Government doing to work with and support local authorities in Wales to ensure this process is easy to use and consistent?

Rebecca Evans AC: I thank Jayne Bryant for raising this particularly important issue in the Chamber this afternoon. The Welsh Government's been working really hard to ensure that everybody who is eligible for a council tax reduction as a result of being classified as seriously mentally impaired—. And I have to say I absolutely hate that phrase; I think it sounds like an awful way to refer to people, but it is a medical phrase that doctors will use. Once somebody has that diagnosis, then they will be eligible for between 25 per cent and 100 per cent of their council tax discount. And we've been working really hard with local authorities to ensure that everybody who is eligible is able to access that, and we've been working hard with the money-saving expert as well. There's been quite a big social media campaign involved, and, since that social media campaign began in April, and Martin Lewis's visit here to Senedd, the provisional figures suggest that exemptions have already increased by 416, from 4,615 in March, to 5,031 in September. By comparison, the whole year before that only saw an increase of 385. So, I think the social campaign is making a difference.
And just to put it in context, an SMI exemption is worth, on average, £1,590 to a household in an average band D property, so it's certainly something, if people think that they or a family member might be entitled to it, they should certainly ask the local authority about.

Mohammad Asghar (Oscar) AC: Minister, of the 45,000 people suffering from dementia, 17,000 people live in a rural area. People with dementia living in rural areas face additional challenges, such as poor transport links making it harder to access help, carers feeling more isolated and unsupported, and, finally, support services being less likely to be available. That's a sad scenario for those people. Minister, what consideration has been given to the needs of people suffering from dementia who live in rural areas in Wales when allocating the budget to the health and social care portfolio?

Rebecca Evans AC: A key commitment of our programme for government, 'Taking Wales Forward', was to develop a specific dementia action plan, and that was published in February of 2018, and that covers up to the period 2022. And a key aim of that plan was to support people living with dementia wherever they live in Wales, and to do so as independently as possible, in their communities, which we aim to be dementia-friendly communities, and also to avoid unnecessary admissions to hospital and ensure that people who do find themselves in hospital are able to be discharged from care as soon as possible. And to support the implementation of that plan, we have committed £10 million a year from Welsh Government from 2018-19, and £9 million of that was targeted through the regional partnership boards. And, of course, the regional partnership boards will be best placed to understand the local challenges of service delivery within their areas—so, for example, the specific rural challenges to which you've referred. And I think that having the extra funding diverted or allocated through those regional partnership boards is certainly the most positive way to address those specific local needs.

Dai Lloyd AC: We hear that front-line staff in social care are concerned that cuts to social care funding are undermining the independence and well-being of disabled people physically and mentally.Now, austerity means that care packages are reduced to the most fundamental and basic tasks, and social workers have to battle for funding to support social and community needs. Do you accept, therefore, that the shortage of funding provided by the Welsh Government to local authorities over the last few years has contributed to this situation, which impacts on our most vulnerable people? And what discussions are you having with your fellow Ministers to put this situation right?

Rebecca Evans AC: Well, there's no argument from me that the settlements for local government over recent years have been extremely challenging. And even with the additional funding that we have this year, clearly things will continue to be particularly difficult in terms of meeting all of the social care needs that have been identified. And, of course, the demographic changes mean that that need is growing, and the complexity of people's needs are becoming more pronounced as well. So, if you look at the recently published data from local authorities, they show an increase of 6 per cent in spend on social services just in the last year. So, it does demonstrate the kind of challenge that they're facing, and it's one of the reasons why, alongside prioritising health within our budget discussions, we have said that we will aim to give local government the best possible settlement.

The Well-being of Future Generations (Wales) Act 2015

Jenny Rathbone AC: 2. What consideration has the Minister given to the Well-being of Future Generations (Wales) Act 2015 in preparing the Welsh Government's budget for next year? OAQ54525

Rebecca Evans AC: I've met with the Future Generations Commissioner for Wales on a number of occasions to discuss how the Act can inform our draft budget preparations to maximise our available resources to have the greatest impact over the longer term.

Jenny Rathbone AC: Thank you, Minister. Obviously, since the Government declared a climate emergency, back in April, which has been fully endorsed by nearly all Members of the Assembly, how does the Welsh Government plan to assess the upcoming budget in the context of the climate emergency and the Well-being of Future Generations (Wales) Act 2015? And what analysis is being done about the impact of budget decisions on our goal of achieving zero carbon?

Rebecca Evans AC: The well-being of future generations Act has very much been at the heart of all of our budget discussions so far. So, when I've met with each of the Ministers in Welsh Government, I have been asking them specifically what they are doing within their portfolios to bring to life all of the ambitions within the well-being of future generations Act and how they're using that to help inform their decisions in terms of their own departmental budgets at an early stage. We've had excellent meetings with the future generations commissioner, and we're working with her to develop a journey checker—so it's part of our budget improvement plan—which will show what actions we're going to take in the short, medium and longer terms to fully embed the well-being of future generations Act within our budget process. And that responds, I think, very much to one of the Finance Committee's recommendations that they put forward.
Overall, across Government, we've looked at this particular budget through the lens of our eight priority areas, and one of those is decarbonisation. And I think one of the ways in which we can really make some good strides with decarbonisation is looking at how we spend our capital funding in particular. So, this is an area that I've been working very closely with colleagues on to ensure that we have positive news in terms of the capital element particularly of our budget.

David Melding AC: I note that Lord Bird, the founder of The Big Issue, is introducing a future generations Act into the House of Lords, inspired very much by the work of Welsh Government. So, a big tick for that. I think this is a really good process, but I have to say, in the financial scrutiny I've been involved in in committees, when you ask the senior officials what training they have had in the use of the Act in budget formation, what decisions have been made that have been different to previous decision making, where the shift's occurring, we get sometimes an embarrassed silence. So, I do hope there'll be some rigour in your monitoring and evaluation of how this Act is used in the budget-making process.

Rebecca Evans AC: I hope that when committees ask officials this during this year's budget scrutiny they won't have that silence. Because we've been working hard to ensure that officials across Welsh Government, not just within the finance department, understand the importance of embedding the Act within their decision making. And one of the meetings with the future generations commissioner has been among senior finance officials across Welsh Government—so, not just within the finance department—and that's to ensure that officials working in finance in the various different Government departments have a consistent understanding of the need to embed the Act within decision making.

Jack Sargeant AC: Can I thank Jenny Rathbone for bringing this question forward today—a crucially important question at a crucial time for our planet and for our future generations? Minister, I welcome your comments, but can you tell me specifically what you are doing to assess and analyse the carbon impact of existing spend as well as any new spend, and how do you plan to publish this to allow Members and others to scrutinise?

Rebecca Evans AC: Well, you'll be familiar with our 'Prosperity for All' low-carbon plan for Wales, which sets out 100 of the different actions that we are taking across Government in terms of ensuring that decarbonisation is very much at the centre of the work that we are doing. But I think it's important to do this within the context of our Environment (Wales) Act 2016, and that puts in place a really robust governance system for Welsh Ministers
So, following advice from the advisory body—the UK Committee on Climate Change—we've increased, as you know, our long-term pathway to respond to a climate emergency: so, from 80 per cent to 95 per cent by the end of 2050, and the Welsh Government is committed to putting a higher emissions reduction target of at least 95 per cent into law. And that really does mean that our pathways have to change and that the decisions that we make have to be made in a different way.
But I think that our low-carbon delivery plans, going forward, will also continually need to show how each Minister's contributing to the actions within our carbon budget, and, as a result, all Ministers will need to reflect on the spending decisions that they have made and that they will make in setting their detailed main expenditure group spending plans.
Within my own portfolio, I think that we can look particularly to the work that's going on in procurement, and that plays a really important role in helping to reduce carbon dioxide emissions. And one of the things that we've done to assess those decisions that we've already made and then to inform better decision making in future is to introduce a decarbonisation dashboard that was developed by Value Wales, and that shows the carbon dioxide emissions for categories of various spends across Government. So, that allows us to look at the decisions that we've made and then seek opportunities to make better decisions in future.

Questions Without Notice from Party Spokespeople

Questions now from the party spokespeople. The Conservative spokesperson, Nick Ramsay.

Nick Ramsay AC: Thank you, Llywydd. Good afternoon, Minister.

Nick Ramsay AC: How can we expect to see the extra funding for the Welsh Government, resulting from the recent UK Government spending review, deliver benefits for Wales in the coming Welsh Government budget?

Rebecca Evans AC: Thank you. Well, we've already set out in the statement that I made on the spending review that Welsh Government's priority will continue to be the NHS in Wales to ensure that people have access to excellent healthcare wherever they live in Wales. But, alongside that, we're very keen to ensure that local government does get the best possible settlement for many of the reasons that we’ve already discussed this afternoon—so, the importance of social care, for example, and the importance of all of those services that keep our communities going.
So, those are our two priority areas, but I’ve been having discussions with all Ministers across Government to explore how we can assist them with the pressures that they’re facing. Because, as you know, one of the big areas of spend—around 50 per cent of Welsh Government’s budget—actually goes to pay. And it’s fantastic to see pay increases, but if the additional funding doesn’t come in full from the UK Government, which is hasn’t done, then that does put greater pressure on Welsh Government.
We’ve also been looking, though, across Government, through the lens of those eight priority areas, to explore where there are areas where we can potentially make new and additional funding commitments that will be able to make a difference in those particular eight areas that we have identified as being the ones that could have the greatest impact for people in Wales.

Nick Ramsay AC: Thank you, Minister, I appreciate it’s early days and I’m looking forward to scrutinising you on the Finance Committee, with my colleagues as well, on the subject of the budget. You just said that you’re lacking money or you haven’t received money from the UK Government, but, as I’m sure you would recognise, the Welsh Government’s resource budget will increase by over £485 million through 2019-20, and the capital budget will also increase by nearly £70 million through 2020-21. So, whilst you might not have received that money today, as we stand here, that has certainly been earmarked for this institution. So, I’d like to hear from you what you intend to do with that to put it to good use.
You mentioned local government. I appreciate that local authority budgets have been under stress, as you said yourself. The Welsh Local Government Association have recently reported that core grant funding has reduced by 20 per cent after adjusting for inflation in 2019-20. If you don’t include school funding, as is the case in English local government, core funding is even lower than that, so, clearly, local authority budgets are under stress.How are you planning, in your budget, to try and make up to local government some of the money that they haven’t been getting, so that they do have that all-important money for public services locally in Wales?

Rebecca Evans AC: Well, I think it’s important to reflect on the reasons why local government have been struggling in recent years, and that’s very much because of the fact that their budgets have been decreasing as Welsh Government’s budget has been decreasing. Last year, there was funding that was well below the funding that they would have had even 10 years before that, so I think that it’s important to reflect on the difficulties there. It’s also important, I think, to remember that whilst the Barnett formula giveth it also taketh away, and this is one of the issues that we are trying to grapple with at the moment, in terms of the most recent spending rounds. So, there was a negative adjustment by the UK Government of around £180 million. Now, we can understand about half of it, but there does remain an outstanding amount, of £90 million, which we just can’t account for. So, we are in dialogue with the UK Government to explore whether we can find some answers to that. But if nothing’s forthcoming, obviously we’ll have to take that through the disputes to the Joint Ministerial Committee.

Nick Ramsay AC: Well, I see what you mean when you say that the Barnett giveth and taketh—that’s a good expression in many ways. I got the document yesterday—'Reforming our union', which featured in the First Minister’s statement—and there’s an interesting section on finance here where the First Minister or the Welsh Government recognises that the Holtham floor—the fiscal framework that came out of those discussions—has actually been delivering for Wales, and we’re receiving more for each pound in Wales now as a result of that. I think you’ll be able to confirm that that’s originally £1.05 for every pound, looking to rise to £1.15. So, that money is coming to us, Minister. So, I was a bit disappointed with your answer when you said that the local authority funding has been decreasing with the Welsh Government's, because that’s certainly not the case at the moment.
If I can broaden that out a little bit to the funding formula, which I mentioned before, and can I make another plea? Because if you look in detail at the funding of local authorities across Wales, it’s clear that rural authorities have come off particularly badly over recent years. So, when you tell us that you’re looking to put money into social services and money into local authorities in the future, can you guarantee that there will be an even spread of that cake and that local authority budgets across Wales, in rural areas, will also get a better deal than they have in the past, so that in future the Welsh budgets for local authorities are fairer than they have been in the past?

Rebecca Evans AC: Well, the local government Minister has been really clear with local authorities that she and I are very open to discussions if local authorities see a better way for distributing the funding that is given to local authorities. And, obviously, the funding formula, as it is, takes into account a wide range of things—rurality being one of them. But we’ve been very clear: if there are ways in which local government can come to a consensus as to what the changes should be, then we’d more than happy to look at those changes. But we’re keen, as I say, to ensure that local authorities do have the best possible settlement within all the challenges that we face.

Plaid Cymru spokesperson, Rhun ap Iorwerth.

Rhun ap Iorwerth AC: Thank you, Llywydd. Will the Minister summarise the main factors and values that determine the financial priorities of the Welsh Government?

Rebecca Evans AC: Thank you very much. So, the main factors and priories that determine the priorities of the Welsh Government will be found in our programme for government, and where, as I say, we’re looking through this particular budget, through the lens of those eight priority areas that Welsh Government has identified as being the ones for which if we can work more closely and in a more co-ordinated way across Government, then we can have the greatest impact on people’s lives. So, those include things like housing, early years, social care, biodiversity, decarbonisation, employment and skills, and so on. So, those are the areas that we’ve identified as being the key ways in which we can make a difference. But as a Cabinet, we have come to the decision that health will remain our priority within this next budget and, again, as I’ve said, giving local authorities the best possible settlement.

Rhun ap Iorwerth AC: Thank you for those remarks, and with reference to that long list of values that you mentioned, I think we could agree that those could be labelled as 'well-being', and I welcome your comments in that regard.
Can I quote the economist Joseph Stiglitz who said last year:

Rhun ap Iorwerth AC: 'If we focus only on material wellbeing—on, say, the production of goods, rather than on health, education, and the environment—we become distorted in the same way that these measures are distorted; we become more materialistic…If we want to put people first, we have to know what matters to them, what improves their wellbeing and how we can supply more of whatever that is.'

Rhun ap Iorwerth AC: I think you would agree with that kind of analysis. The well-being of people is important to us. Famously by now, New Zealand has introduced a new way of budgeting that focuses specifically on seeking to deliver on what’s important to the population’s well-being. Closer to home, the Scottish Government is also measuring its attainment and its performance through the national outcomes, with a statutory emphasis placed on those through the Community Empowerment (Scotland) Act 2015.
Can you, as Minister, confirmed to me whether any application has been made, or any invitation has been given, to the Welsh Government to join an international well-being alliance, where a number of countries work together to develop exactly the kind of well-being budgets that I have mentioned as existing in Scotland and in New Zealand?

Rebecca Evans AC: Thank you very much. I'm familiar with the situation in New Zealand, and Welsh Government officials have been working closely with officials from New Zealand to better understand each other's approaches, because, actually, many of the things in the New Zealand budget setting approach are incorporated in our approach to the legislation of the Well-being of Future Generations (Wales) Act 2015. So, there are lots of mirrors there, I think.
And in terms of Scotland and their approach to measuring well-being, well we, of course, have our national indicators, which sit underneath the well-being of future generations Act. So, again, I think there's lots of synergy, and, of course, we're open to learning from other nations and sharing our best practice too.
In terms of the particular organisation and the network to which you referred, I'm not personally aware of an invitation, but that doesn't mean that it hasn't been extended. I will certainly look into that, because, as I say, we're keen to learn from others.

Rhun ap Iorwerth AC: Thank you. I understand that an invitation has been made and that the Welsh Government turned down the invitation to join this well-being alliance. I'll write to you as a Minister to share more information about that. And if that is indeed true, I think it's a matter of regret. We do have the well-being of future generations Act, but we cannot rely on that.
I think a few weeks ago, in the Finance Committee, you said that budget adjustments are always made in the context of the well-being of future generations Act. I think the response that came from one former Minister, Alun Daives, was that he was involved in conversations about some of those adjustments and he doesn't remember any conversations about either the future generations Act or 'Prosperity for All' in any of those conversations. So, there are real questions about what is actually happening on the ground. Would you agree with me that, as we have said in Plaid Cymru that we would, as a Government, very much want to join the kind of alliance of well-being budget Governments that I mentioned, Welsh Government would be missing an opportunity if it were not to take every chance to learn from others in implementing the kind of budgets that actually work towards improving the well-being of the people of Wales?

Rebecca Evans AC: Well, as I say, I'll look into that particular case of the network to which you refer.FootnoteLink As I say, it's not something that has come across my desk, but Welsh Government is particularly keen to engage in networks and learn from others, especially now in the context of Brexit, of course, because our international relationships are as important as they've ever been now in terms of being able to demonstrate what we are doing in Wales and the values that we have here in Wales, which I think are shared by many across the world, and in terms of also learning from others, because we certainly don't have the monopoly on good ideas.

Information further to Plenary

Brexit Party spokesperson, Mark Reckless.

Mark Reckless AC: Diolch, Llywydd. Finance Minister, you describe the increase in the Public Works Loan Board interest rates as a retrograde move. In doing that, were you reflecting the Treasury's press release, saying that, by increasing the margin that applies to new loans by 100 basis points, it was restoring interest rates to levels available in 2018? And would you agree with my assessment that the Treasury is looking to rein in quite a large number of local councils? Some I'm aware of on the English side of the border, who've been building very substantial commercial property portfolios, sometimes beyond their council areas, sometimes paying really very substantial sums for retail properties that have been out of favour in the commercial market. And one example: Spelthorne Borough Council borrowed £405 million from the Public Works Loan Board, which was to buy BP's global research centre. And may this reflect the greater degree of austerity that English local authorities have generally seen? For instance, in Spelthorne, its overall budget is only £22 million, yet this £405 million is a vast multiple of that, and they're expecting, I think, this year, to get £10 million of their £22 million budget from net profits on their property portfolio. Is that something that the Treasury have taken action against and have we in Wales been caught up in that?

Rebecca Evans AC: Well, as you say, the interest rate changed without notice from 1.8 to 2.8 per cent with immediate effect last week. And that does cause difficulty for local authorities in Wales, of course, because they will have to reassess all of their borrowing plans and the plans that they have for strategic investment in social housing particularly, but also in schools and other capital projects particularly in Wales.
I think it's important to note as well that Welsh Government, over a long period of time, campaigned for the removal of the cap on borrowing for local authorities and to allow local authorities to be borrowing to a limit that was sensible for them. You certainly didn't give any examples in Wales where we've seen borrowing to an extent that is irresponsible in any way. So, I think that it is a big problem for local authorities in Wales, because of course it does mean reassessing their plans.

Mark Reckless AC: Minister, you referred to regeneration activities and social housing as positive examples where local government in Wales might be borrowing money, but there are also—there's some evidence, at least, of local government borrowing in Wales motivated by the commercial property portfolio investment. One example is Monmouthshire, and we've heard in this Chamber quite frequently how tough Monmouthshire has found the budget in terms of the far, far lesser amount it gets from Welsh Government than many other councils. And I just wonder whether this is their response to it in the way we've seen from these English councils.
It was quite a significant commercial property portfolio that Monmouthshire already had, but there have been two deals this year where they've added to it, funded from the Public Works Loan Board. There was a £7 million purchase of Castlegate Business Park in Caldicot, and then in March, a larger £21 million purchase of the Newport Leisure Park, which is outside the Monmouthshire council area—£21 million spent on that, and they're hoping that there'll be £1.4 million of rent coming in. So, if we have got councils borrowing at 1.8 per cent, now at 2.8 per cent, and potentially getting yields of 6 or 7 per cent, isn't this something that's potentially going to continue and get larger, and what is Welsh Government doing to ensure that such borrowing is appropriate and that the local councils involved have the necessary expertise and aren't taking excessive risks for which they might, at some future date, look for assistance from Welsh Government?

Rebecca Evans AC: Local authorities, in terms of their own spending decisions, will have to justify those to their local electorate. So, for the examples you gave from Monmouthshire, it would be for the local electorate to explore, or to decide, really, if they're comfortable with the decisions that local authorities are making. But in terms of the overall impact of this decision on local authorities in Wales, of course, the Minister for Housing and Local Government and I will be meeting again with the finance sub-group, as we regularly do, so this will be an item that we can explore with them. And I'd be happy to send you some more information in terms of the guidance that we, through the local government Minister, give to local authorities in terms of borrowing.

Question 3 [OAQ54543] has been withdrawn. Question 4, Siân Gwenllian.

Second Homes

Siân Gwenllian AC: 4. Will the Minister provide an update on how the Welsh Government ensures that second home owners pay council tax? OAQ54553

Rebecca Evans AC: There are robust collection and enforcement arrangements in place to ensure all householders pay the council tax for which they are liable. We work closely with local government to improve these processes, wherever possible.

Siân Gwenllian AC: There is an issue of fundamental unfairness here. There are many second homes in Wales. These are domestic homes that are used as second homeswhile the main home is elsewhere, so I’m not talking about business units, commercial caterers or holiday businesses here. But there is a loophole in the law, and I think your Government is aware of this. There is a loophole that means that an increasing number of owners of second homes have found a means of not paying council tax or business rates. Do you agree that we need to find an urgent solution to this problem, and do you agree that reforming section 66 of the Local Government Finance Act 1988 would be one way of doing away with this unfairness?

Rebecca Evans AC: Well, I'm not sure that I would agree that there's a loophole in the law, because the law is very clear in terms of whether a property is a dwelling for the purposes of council tax or whether it is a business for the purposes of non-domestic rates. I appreciate that some of those will be classified as small businesses and then will be eligible for rates relief. But I did meet with the Valuation Office Agency recently to discuss these specific concerns, and they showed me the forms that businesses have to fill in to demonstrate that they are genuinely meeting the conditions of a business—so, the 70 nights' occupancy and then 140 nights' availability for that property. But I know as well that we've invited local authorities to give examples of where it's not happening. So, Gwynedd, I know, gave a number of examples to the Valuation Office Agency and they investigated each of those, and they found that in none of those cases were the owners of those properties operating outside of the law.

Siân Gwenllian AC: It's legal. It's a legal loophole.

Rhun ap Iorwerth AC: Because there's a loophole. They're able to do it. That's where the loophole is.

Siân Gwenllian AC: That's the whole point.

Rebecca Evans AC: There's not a loophole.

Mark Isherwood AC: As you know, the non-domestic rating Order specifies the terms you've just described—140 days' availability, 70 days' occupancy—in order to qualify as a self-catering business. And you referred to the gate-keeping role played by the Valuation Office Agency and the documentation they require, and that they'd investigated a few cases referred by Gwynedd. But what tripwire is in place within the system to ensure that the valuation office is routinely investigating and checking at least a sample of claimed self-catering properties to ensure that they are what they claim to be, whilst also recognising that the terms the Welsh Government implemented were a compromise with the industry to protect legitimate businesses?

Rebecca Evans AC: If local authorities particularly have any concerns about any property at all, they should draw it to the attention of the Valuation Office Agency and they will assess it in detail. I think that we need to reflect as well that, actually, it's very serious if an owner of a property seeks to evade and avoid tax by claiming that their property is a holiday let as opposed to a domestic residence, because, of course, if they are found to have been doing that, then they can face a very large backdated bill for council tax. Actually, any attempt to mislead an authority or the VOA, or knowingly provide false or inaccurate information, could lead to prosecution for fraud. So, seeking to avoid or evade paying tax in that way is extremely serious.

Business Rate Relief

Michelle Brown AC: 5. How effective has business rate relief been in helping businesses in Wales? OAQ54533

Rebecca Evans AC: The Welsh Government’s package of rates relief is providing over £230 million of support to businesses and other ratepayers with their bills this year. Half of all businesses in Wales pay no rates at all.

Michelle Brown AC: Thank you for that answer, Minister. Rhyl High Street and town centre have declined over the years, like many town centres in Wales. Once, it had a thriving town centre, now it looks like many of the towns that have decayed under this Government's watch. Shop owners are losing out to out-of-town retail parks, which offer free and convenient parking, and outlets that have, more than likely, been offered a discount on rent or their business rates to tempt them away from the town and into the park.
Whenever this Government is asked about business rates and business rate relief, and how it can be used better to reinvigorate the high street, you always reply that local authorities are best placed to decide how to improve town centres in their patch. That may be so, but they're not doing it. Isn't it now time for the Welsh Government to show leadership on this issue and show local authorities how they can save the town centres and preserve them, particularly for those small and medium-sized retailers that are based in the town centres and are likely to lead to job creation and thriving high streets?The review of rate relief is taking way too long. Town centres are dying while you bat away any serious scrutiny by hiding behind what seems to be an internal review.

Rebecca Evans AC: Well, I don't think it's fair to say that, whenever asked about this issue, I say it's for local authorities because, of course, we have Wales-wide schemes that are administered and there is no discretion to some of these schemes. So, for example, small business rates relief, that's a permanent small business rates relief scheme in Wales, providing over £120 million of relief this year. It's fully funded by Welsh Government, as opposed to across the border, where you'll find businesses subsidising other businesses. And more than 70,000 ratepayers across Wales receive assistance and, as I say, half of them pay nothing at all. That compares to a third of those in England.Alongside that, we also have our high streets and rate relief schemes. That's an additional £23.6 million available to support and enhance high streets, and we've expanded that so that it just doesn't involve shop and retail in that sense; it's expanded to pubs, to restaurants, to ensure that it supports the cafes and those other businesses that give our town centres a vibrant character.
Where there is discretion for local authorities is in the additional £2.4 million, and that's where they have the discretion to target that support to specific local businesses or sectors that they think are particularly important to the life of their town. And I think that it really is appropriate for them to have that discretion there. Of course, rate reliefs themselves aren't going to be the panacea for all of the problems facing high streets, and that's why we have things like our loans for high streets, which is an extremely popular scheme, and that's revitalising high streets. We've got our town-centre regeneration work that is going on across Wales as well. So, there are many things that we are doing to revitalise our high streets, but I don't think any of us underestimate the challenge of that.

Suzy Davies AC: It's on that point, actually. In July, you may remember, actually, that you were kind enough to write, or correspond, anyway, with Bridgend County Borough Council about their high street retail rates relief. They finally told me in July—and it was after you'd contacted them—that 90 per cent of businesses that had applied to them for this kind of rate relief had actually been successful, so thank you for contacting them. However, if the measure of success of this policy is the number of high street businesses that have either opened or stayed open, I'm not sure that you can claim success in this particular borough. So, in this review that you're doing and the evaluation of the policy, what are going to be the main criteria for success? Is it going to be the number of businesses that have stayed open, rather than comparisons with England on how many people are paying rates and so forth? And will you be comparing the effects of your particular policy with alternative policies that are being offered here by other parties?

Rebecca Evans AC: So, next month I look forward to bringing forward a statement to the Assembly on local government financial reform, and that's looking at local taxes in the round, so it will be looking at both council tax and also non-domestic rates. And it will be describe the research that we've commissioned across both of those areas to help us better understand what the opportunities are for more long-term reform of both of those things.
In terms of some of the ways in which we can measure success, in answer to Rhun ap Iorwerth's question earlier, we talked about how you measure value for money. Measuring value for money in just purely monetary terms is one thing but, actually, if we measure it in a more creative way, ways that seek to promote the Welsh Government's wider agenda in terms of biodiversity, for example, or our economic action plan, then I think there are great opportunities there to target investment and support. But I do think that this is a longer piece of work. Suzy asked if we'd be looking at other ideas. I'd very much welcome this consversation to be something that we can continue, to explore areas where we have common ideas and where we can share ideas.

Devolved Taxes

Nick Ramsay AC: 6. Will the Minister provide an update on the collection of devolved taxes? OAQ54524

Rebecca Evans AC: The Welsh Revenue Authority regularly publishes outturn information about the revenue collected from land transaction tax and landfill disposals tax. Her Majesty's Revenue and Customs is due to publish the first full year of outturn data on the Welsh rates of income tax revenue for this financial year in summer 2021.

Nick Ramsay AC: I look forward to the publication of that data, Minister. We are now six months into the devolution of the Welsh rate of income tax—the creation of that Welsh rate— and we are, as you said, significantly longer than that into the devolution of stamp duty, now land transaction tax, and land disposal tax. So, have you made any preliminary assessment of the collection rates of those taxes, particularly the ones that have been devolved longer, and are the amounts being raised from those taxes in line with Welsh Government expectations? I know that some of the early data from—I think it was from—land disposal tax shows that more was being collected, much more than originally anticipated, at least for the first quarter, for a variety of reasons. So, I wondered whether we were seeing any other similar strange but welcome anomalies or otherwise in some of the other data for the other taxes.

Rebecca Evans AC: In terms of land transaction tax and the outturn for 2018-19, well that is £12 million lower than Welsh Government's final budget forecast in December of last year. That was £239 million. And a more recent forecast by the Office for Budget Responsibility, published alongside the spring statement in March, had revenues for 2018-19 to be £234 million. The next revenue forecast will be published alongside the Office for Budget Responsibility's work alongside the draft budget in November.
The latest data published by the WRA show LTT revenue between 1 and 31 August 2019 to be £88.5 million. That's 4 per cent down on the same period last year. And I think that it's fair to say that land transaction tax is by its very nature quite a volatile tax, so it's perhaps more difficult to forecast. And, in terms of landfill disposals tax, the OBR forecast for 2019-20 is £41 million. So, that's £2 million lower than the Welsh Government forecast back in December 2018, but, again, as we move towards our goal of zero waste, the amount of money that is received through landfill disposals tax will naturally be declining over time.

The Shared Prosperity Fund

Mick Antoniw AC: 7. What discussions has the Minister had with the UK Government regarding the Shared Prosperity Fund? OAQ54547

Rebecca Evans AC: I continue to raise the importance of replacement EU funding in full and for the Welsh Government to retain the autonomy to deliver it. I pressed the Chief Secretary to the Treasury on this matter when I met with him at the most recent meeting of the finance Ministers.

Mick Antoniw AC: Well, thank you for that answer, Minister. Of course, I appreciate the difficulty you have in getting a response. Now, for those of us who watched live broadcasts of the Conservative Party conference, we would have had a very adequate answer, because the Minister was actually there in public giving public pronouncements at meetings, making it absolutely clear that the shared prosperity fund is something that is going to be controlled and regulated in order to strengthen the union, and that means very clearly, I think, that it's going to be used in a way that undermines the whole principles of our devolution settlement. Now, bearing in mind that the Minister seems to be capable of doing that live on television, I wonder if, perhaps, an urgent response is required from Welsh Government demanding that we also be given the same privilege or luxury of an answer so at least we can tackle those issues head on.

Rebecca Evans AC: Yes. I can confirm that the Counsel General and Brexit Minister reinforced our position as a Welsh Government—and one which I know is shared across parties in this Chamber—with Ministers at a meeting of the JMC last week on 10 October. And, of course, we've been very active raising these points consistently, reflecting the views of Welsh Government, but, as I say, the shared views that we had the opportunity to put on record through a debate in this Assembly, which said that the Welsh Government should retain the autonomy to allocate the funding for those schemes because we have the experience, the networks and so on in order to do that most effectively, and also that principle of 'not a penny less'. I was very concerned when I raised this with the Chief Secretary to the Treasury and he almost batted that off, saying, 'Well, that was a leave campaign promise, not a Conservative Government promise', but, of course, the Prime Minister was the leader of the leave campaign, so I think that we can certainly be reasonably expected to hold him to account on that.

Supporting 16 to 18-year-olds

Joyce Watson AC: 8. What consideration has the Minister given to supporting 16-18 year olds when setting the Welsh Government's budget for 2020-21? OAQ54545

Rebecca Evans AC: We continually assess the impact of a range of factors on the Welsh Government’s spending plans, including the latest demographic projections. I met with the Children's Commissioner for Wales on 23 September as part of my engagement with relevant stakeholders ahead of the forthcoming budget.

Joyce Watson AC: I thank you for that. But, despite many years of Tory austerity, the Welsh Government have been committed to helping children from low-income families to remain in education if that's what they choose to do. And that's evident from the continuation of the education and maintenance allowance for 16 to 18-year-olds in the current budget plan and the mytravelpass, which gives a 30 per cent discount on bus travel in Wales to 16 to 21-year-olds, helping with affordability to their place of work or education. So, when you're setting the next budget, will you commit to helping young people in whatever way you are able to, in complete contrast to what's happening where the Tories are in control elsewhere?

Rebecca Evans AC: Thank you very much for raising the importance of holding the best needs of young people very much at the front of our minds during all of our budget discussions, and that was certainly a message that the children's commissioner was keen to reinforce with me when we had that opportunity to meet very recently.
Education maintenance allowance is certainly one of those areas where we have been able to support young people, particularly those from more disadvantaged backgrounds in order to help them stay in school. Because obviously we know that having that support to stay in school is the most important thing in terms of helping them onto a positive path in life where they'll be able to reach their fullest potential. We've invested more than £360 million in the EMA scheme since 2004-05 when we first introduced it. I think that's really positive, so we've been able to help over 20,000 young people in that.
We've also allocated £6.3 million via the financial contingency fund scheme to further education institutions in Wales. I think that's really important as well, because it does allow those further education institutions to be able to target support at the young people whom they understand need it most.

Thank you to the Minister.

2. Questions to the Minister for International Relations and Welsh Language

The next item is questions to the Minister for International Relations and the Welsh Language, and the first question is from Russell George.

Selling Wales to the World

Russell George AC: 1. Will the Minister make a statement on the Welsh Government's progress in implementing the recommendations from the Economy, Infrastructure and Skills Committee’s report on Selling Wales to the World? OAQ54517

Eluned Morgan AC: Thank you. We're making good progress implementing the recommendations. For example, I have focused on growing exports in the international strategy, and an export growth strategy is part of that work. You will have noticed, I'm sure, that the first recommendation, establishing a specific post both for international relations and trade and a post on Brexit, was one of the first acts of the First Minister on taking office.

Russell George AC: Thank you, Minister, for your answer. I did also notice that during the external affairs committee on 23 September, you did seem to suggest then—and I think you're backing this up in your answer now—that the Welsh Government would be placing more emphasis on supporting exports rather than attracting inward investment. If that is correct, I wonder if you could explain the rationale for this approach and provide your view of the relationship that exists between export and investment in terms of delivering benefits to the Welsh economy for those different business sectors.

Eluned Morgan AC: Well, I think it's really important to underline that in no way are we moving away from encouraging investment into Wales, but it's pretty clear at a time of this kind of economic flux, where we don't know what our relationship will be with our nearest economic partner, that it makes sense for us to focus on exports, as indeed the Foreign and Commonwealth Office has done and the Department for International Trade has done. And therefore, what we've done, we've been very pleased to have received additional funding from the funding that has come as a result of Brexit to help to encourage more exporters from within Wales, particularly targeting small and medium-sized enterprises, and we've been making considerable progress on that and we're delighted that there has been a very positive response.

Bethan Sayed AC: I wanted to focus on recommendation 5 and the remit of overseas offices and how they should be communicated to businesses and how they can be maximised. I know, for example, that you have three offices in India, but I'm also aware of many businesses with Indian baseshere in Wales who don't have any communication whatsoever from Welsh Government, and they do their own missions to India, and would welcome support, I think, from Welsh Government to know how they could be able to link up with those offices. So, what is the remit, and if they are doing work with businesses, what are those businesses, and how can we make sure that businesses that want the support of Welsh Government in these countries are getting what they deserve?

Eluned Morgan AC: Thank you. Last week, I sent a very clear notice of the remit of those offices to the responsible committee to set out exactly what our expectations are of those overseas offices. We've got a much more robust method of ensuring that we are looking at the performance of those offices. In fact, we have appointed a new performance manager who has to come up with bespoke plans for each of those 20 offices overseas. Of course, we're trying to increase the visibility of those offices, and that's something that I'm sure you'll have seen in the international strategy. We've made sure that there's visibility for them, that people know that they can approach them directly. So, we're very keen to make sure that those companies in particular in Wales, and we don't have to be there holding the hand of any company that wants to go and export abroad, they can do that directly, and we would encourage them to contact the Welsh offices overseas directly.

Question 2, Rhianon Passmore.

Islwyn as a Tourist Destination

Rhianon Passmore AC: Diolch, Llywydd. Deputy Minister, in the first three months of 2019, figures show—

You need to ask the question on the order paper.

Rhianon Passmore AC: Oh yes, of course, sorry. I'll get it in a minute. Sorry, Llywydd.

Rhianon Passmore AC: 2. How is the Welsh Government promoting Islwyn as a tourist destination? OAQ54549

Dafydd Elis-Thomas AC: Diolch, Rhianon. The tourism strategy of Welsh Government sets out priorities to support the tourism industry across Wales. This includes marketing campaigns in the UK and overseas, and significant capital development funding for new and existing tourism businesses, along with revenue funding for significant regional projects.

Rhianon Passmore AC: Okay. In the first three months of 2019, figures show that there were 16.6 million day visits to destinations in Wales, with a related spend of £874 million. Over the 12 months ending March 2019, there were 10.1 million overnight trips to Wales, which is up by 11 per cent, with expenditure of £1.848 million, also up by 7.8 per cent in just one year. So, Deputy Minister, these figures show how vital to the economies of Welsh communities domestic tourism alone is within the United Kingdom.
The Welsh Government has already earmarked the stunning natural landscape of the Cwmcarn forestscenic drive in Islwyn as a discovery gateway that will benefit from Valleys taskforce funding, and Crumlinitself stands with its Navigation colliery as testimony to the toil and sweat of the people of Islwynto Wales and the United Kingdom'shistoric legacy. So, Deputy Minister, what actions does the Welsh Government propose to take to continue to promote the wonderful communities of Islwyn and their world-class attractions as a place for tourists, local and international, to head towards?

Dafydd Elis-Thomas AC: What I'm particularly anxious to promote is the link between the amazing landscape and the very significant industrial heritage. Since you've mentioned Cwmcarn, you'll remember that I opened the lodge and adventure hub there, which was funded via the tourist attraction destination programme, in July this year. I think Cwmcarn does represent a significant attraction in itself, and I'm delighted to say that work that has had to take place on the 160,000 diseased larch trees at that site is almost complete. So, we will then be able to celebrate, yet again, the significance of that site.

Mohammad Asghar (Oscar) AC: Deputy Minister, I heard you saying about Cwmcarn. I welcome the investment by Visit Wales in a new attraction at Cwmcarn forest drive, including an adventure play hub and new luxury lodges, which you opened in July. You will also be aware that Cwmcarn forest drive has been closed for the last five years, due to the need to remove diseased trees. Natural Resources Wales hope to reopen Cwmcarn forest drive as soon as possible early next year. When this happens, Minister, will you commit to working with Visit Wales to widely promote and publiciseCwmcarn forest drive so that as many people as possible come and enjoy the scenery and the beauty and the activities at this wonderful venue in south-east Wales?

Dafydd Elis-Thomas AC: Thank you. Let's understand the position: I don't have to work with Visit Wales; they work for me as the Minister for tourism, and I'm pleased to say that I have a most excellent relationship with Visit Wales and its management, and that extends, of course, to Natural Resources Wales, because it's clearly important that all the agencies work together. I'm not going to give you a date as to when the forest drive will be re-opened because then you will stand up and ask another question asking why it hasn't been opened. [Interruption.] But we do recognise that Cwmcarn—. No, I am not going down that route, because clearly it was a serious case of disease in larch that is not unique to that part of Wales or indeed anywhere else in European forestry. So, what we have there is an example of a site that is managed jointly between Caerphilly County Borough Council and Natural Resources Wales. As you said, it's seven miles of scenic route and it offers all kinds of outdoor activities: mountain bike trails, walking trails, accommodation, as you've described. It is now part of the Valleys regional park discovery gateway, and we intend to continue to promote Cwmcarn, I can promise you that.

David J Rowlands AC: Would the Minister join me in congratulating the pressure group the Friends of Cwmcarn Drive on proving the case for reinstating the facilities at Cwmcarn forest drive to Natural Resources Wales, and the time and effort the people who constitute the group put into securing the drive for the benefit of the Wales tourist industry in general, as well as the local economy?

Dafydd Elis-Thomas AC: Of course I will warmly support any voluntary activity that takes place in support of the Welsh environment, and in particular of our distinctive forest environment. I wish to thank the voluntary organisation that has been involved, and other voluntary organisations throughout Wales that support our landscape policies and our landscape vision, for the work that they do on a voluntary basis.

Questions Without Notice from Party Spokespeople

Questions now from the party spokespeople. Conservatives spokesperson, Suzy Davies.

Suzy Davies AC: Thank you, Llywydd, and good afternoon, Minister. According to the programme initiation document for your programme board on 20 March 2019, we are expecting a number of steps from you during this month. One of those is to develop and to implement a Welsh language strategy communications plan across departments of Government. It's three years since this Assembly started, so why hasn't this happened yet?

Eluned Morgan AC: Thank you. A lot of work has been going into the communications plan across Government. You are aware that during the Eisteddfod we launched the 2050 project. This was a plan to ensure that we can mainstream the Welsh language across Government, but I hope there will be, during the next month, a plan coming forward, and this, of course, is work for the Permanent Secretary to bring forward something of substance as to how we are going to move forward within the Welsh Government with our plan of Welshifying the civil service here in Wales.

Suzy Davies AC: Well, thank you for that response, but you haven't quite answered the question as to why it’s taken so long. We are also expecting the publication of the policy on language transmission within the family and an oral statement on language infrastructure. I'm hoping that I'll get something from you on those also, because they too are on the programme board timetable.
Now, if I could just move on. The Welsh language partnership council advises and makes comment to Welsh Ministers—just to you—in relation to the Welsh language strategy. Since your plans for a new Bill were shelved and the programme initiation document was issued, I can find only one set of minutes, which were incomplete, of the partnership council’s meeting in April, where, after the usual audit of risks, there was a presentation on second homes and policy in Cornwall. How has the partnership council assisted you in promoting the 2050 strategy since the Bill was shelved?

Eluned Morgan AC: Well, the partnership council provides expert advice to us on the Welsh language. The minutes are published now and, certainly, the work that they do for us is a great assistance to ensure that we are on the right path to achieve our aim of a million Welsh speakers. One of the things, for example, in the last meeting, was that we were talking about the economy and how we look at the economy in the more Welsh areas and to ensure, as a result of Brexit, how we’re going to continue to ensure that those areas can move forward and keep young people, particularly in our strongholds.

Suzy Davies AC: Thank you for that, but, once again, I’m talking about three years into this Assembly, and I’m talking about almost six months since you shelved the Bill. It doesn’t appear to me that a great deal has changed in the meantime. Furthermore, perhaps you could tell me how many members of the partnership council have personal experience of being Welsh learners themselves? One of the three themes is to increase the number of Welsh speakers. Will that include learners already in the current education system or in the workplace? Only 12 Welsh teachers have qualified this year. There are almost as many Members of the partnership council as there are new Welsh teachers. Why isn’t your strategy grasping the attention of incoming teachers?

Eluned Morgan AC: It is a challenge to recruit teachers across the world currently, and I have been working very closely with the education Minister to ensure that we look at how we can help to attract more people into following a Welsh teaching course, and a lot of money has been going into it. For example, we have provided an additional £150,000 to ensure that more people undertake Welsh A-level because we know that many of those go on to teach and learn through the medium of Welsh. And I do also think that it’s important that we let people know that we have provided an additional £5,000 to ensure that more people understand that there is an additional incentive for them if they train through the medium of Welsh. So, we are taking specific steps. It is difficult, especially in terms of secondary education, but in terms of primary education, I think we are certainly in the right place.

The Plaid Cymru spokesperson, Delyth Jewell.

Delyth Jewell AC: Diolch, Llywydd. Minister, I know the Kurdish community in Wales would wish me to thank you for raising concerns with the UK Foreign Secretary about Turkey's decision to invade Kurdish territories in Syria. I know that you care about the plight of the Kurdish people, as do we in Plaid Cymru, and I'm glad to see the Welsh Government taking action on this. Donald Trump's decision to allow Turkey to unleash a brutal and murderous assault on the Kurds will go down in history as an act of senseless evil. The brave Kurds stopped ISIS in their tracks. They have been reliable allies to western countries over many years, but instead of being supported, they've been stabbed in the back once again. No wonder the Kurdish people say they have no friends but the mountains. But, Minister, the UK has finally suspended arms sales to Turkey, and, as a member of the Council of Europe, Turkey is bound by the European Convention on Human Rights, which places a duty on member states to refrain from unlawful killing. Now, since Turkey's actions clearly contravene these duties, do you agree with me that there's an argument for bringing a case against Turkey to the European Court of Human Rights?

Eluned Morgan AC: Well, thank you very much, and I'm glad that you referred to the fact that we have written to Dominic Raab, but I think it is worth underlining the point that, actually, foreign affairs is an area where the UK Government takes the primary responsibility. But I think we are super sensitive to the fact that there is a large Kurdish community within Wales, who have real concerns about what's going on in that area, and I am also delighted that the UK Government have stopped issuing further arms export licences to Turkey. In terms of whether we should take further moves, I think that is going to be a decision for the UK Government. That has to be their responsibility, and they are in the driving seat in relation to foreign affairs.

Delyth Jewell AC: Okay. Thank you, Minister, for that. I would say that, again, it's very welcome that you have taken the action that you've taken, but I think this is, as you've acknowledged, a very large issue, and it would be good to hear your opinion on that.
Some companies involved in the arms trade, including sales of arms to Turkey, have bases of operation in Wales, and some have received Welsh Government funding. Now, some of these companies are very large manufacturers, and those arms activities are a small part of their work. However, I am concerned at the possibility that Welsh Government funds could, in theory, have been used to facilitate the selling of arms to Turkey, which again could now be being used against the Kurdish communities. Could you give me an assurance, Minister, that, when your Government gives funds to companies that have these arms-manufacturing components to their work in future, you will do everything you can to ensure that these funds will not be used to facilitate the arms trade in any way? I simply want to make sure that there's no blood in the supply chains, as I'm sure you would agree with.

Eluned Morgan AC: Well, this is one of the reasons why I was particularly pleased to hear Dominic Rabb say yesterday that he was going to suspend issuing further arms exports, because, actually, it's very difficult for us to do anything unilaterally in Wales. We come under the UK Government, we have to comply with those rules and those laws, and that's why I was delighted to see that that action was taken on behalf of the whole of the United Kingdom. So, it is very difficult for us to do things separately. But I also think it's probably worth underlining that there are a lot of jobs involved here as well in Wales, and we have to be very sensitive, I think, in terms of treading this very, very difficult and delicate path, because, of course, I don't think we would want to see a situation where those arms were being used on innocent civilians, certainly, in that part of the world.

Delyth Jewell AC: Thank you, Minister. Obviously, the jobs that are involved are going to be important, but, again, in terms of these component parts of the work that's being put into the selling of arms, I think it would be good for the Welsh Government—well, it would be not just good, it would be thoroughly important for the Welsh Government—to do everything it can to make sure that that isn't an indirect way that we are funding that.
But finally, Minister, I'd like to turn to an issue that's closer to home, which is the Spanish state's jailing of the Catalan independence campaigners. It is unconscionable that political jailings are happening in Europe in 2019. Western countries have rightly criticised China for clamping down on protesters in Hong Kong, yet we have a European Union member state sending politicians to prison for delivering a legitimate, democratic mandate. Minister, will you join Plaid Cymru and, indeed, some of your own Labour backbenchers, in condemning Spain for their actions? And will you send a message of solidarity to the nine Catalan politicians and campaigners who are now in prison for taking actions that ought to be protected under the United Nations charter's enshrinement of the right to self-determination?

Eluned Morgan AC: Thank you once again. It is the United Kingdom that takes the lead on foreign affairs, but I have already written to the Foreign Secretary to ask what representation they've made to the Spanish Government about the prison sentences handed down to the Catalan politicians. And my understanding is that we'll be having a further question on this during topical questions.

Industrial Heritage in Caerphilly

Hefin David AC: 3. Will the Minister make a statement on the preservation of industrial heritage in Caerphilly? OAQ54541

Dafydd Elis-Thomas AC: Thank you very much. Caerphilly has a very significant industrial heritage—indeed, a very significant built heritage generally. And, for me, the industrial structures and sites—over 40 of them—in the authority that have been designated as listed buildings and scheduled monuments indicates that the industrial past represent for us a way to understand where we have come from as a people. And we must pay them, I would say, even more respect than the great castle of Caerphilly itself.

Hefin David AC: I absolutely agree with that. It's not just about the castle in Caerphilly; it's also about some other sites as well. And we welcome the £900,000 of funding for the Penallta park, which the Deputy Minister sitting next to you has signed off, and we're grateful for that. But opposite that is Penallta colliery, and the winding wheel and the pit baths there are a historic remembrance of that past, but also becoming something of an eyesore, around the pit baths and around the winding wheel. It's not included in support packages, and the reason for that is that they are privately owned. And what I would think would be a very helpful idea is if the Valleys taskforce could bring together Welsh Government, the local authority and the owners of the winding wheel and pit baths to discuss the future of those sites of historic interest. It's a difficult challenge, but I'd be more than happy to meet with the Deputy Minister, and his colleagues if necessary, to discuss what more we can do there. Would you commit to working across portfolio to achieve that, and possibly even having a meeting in Penallta to discuss?

Dafydd Elis-Thomas AC: Well, you will know, Hefin, that there is already permission in place for residential use on that site. And also my understanding is that Caerphilly County Borough Council and the private developer are in continuing discussions about the future of the site. However, the relevant Minister, sitting next to me, has heard what’s just been said. The Valleys regional park includes Parc Penallta as a discovery gateway, and these designations, whether in areas of industrial heritage or of landscape heritage, must be regarded as more than a mere designation; they have to have clear policy driving them forward in terms of their own conservation. I’m confident that £900,000, which you gratefully welcomed for the new visitor centre and the programme of community-focused activities on that site, will lead to that happening.

David Melding AC: Deputy Minister, areas like Caerphilly, as you say, are immensely rich in their industrial heritage, and I think, all over those industrial parts of Wales, industrial heritage is often in the hands of local groups, and obviously local councils. I noticed recently Aber Valley Heritage Group and what they’ve done in the past to raise awareness of the Senghenydd disaster and keep that memory alive through local displays and such. But displays, records, photographs, education materials, memorials, public art, walking trails are all vital in retaining our memory as a living thing of our past. And I do hope that you’re working with the councils to ensure that these groups of people coming together have that level of expertise, perhaps, in the maintenance of websites and the like, but also signage, public art—these things are open to local initiative, because, really, they do produce some outstanding examples of how to take care of our heritage.

Dafydd Elis-Thomas AC: Thank you very much for that, David. I have spent some time visiting, in particular, the local museums, and what I'm encouraging societies and voluntary groups that are concerned about either the built heritage or any other aspect of the environment or of our industrial memory to do is to work closely with our local museums and also with the national museum itself, because clearly there’s an expertise there that can always be made available to assist local societies in their conservation activities. But if you have any particular examples in your region, which I know is full of this form of heritage, I'd be very grateful if you could draw it to our attention, if you feel that there is a failure to deliver here in support of local voluntary initiatives.

International Trade Priorities

Huw Irranca-Davies AC: 4. What engagement has the Minister had with organisations in Ogmore on the Welsh Government’s international trade priorities? OAQ54535

Eluned Morgan AC: Promoting exports and international trade is a priority in the international strategy, and we've enhanced our support for Welsh exporters and we're working with a number of businesses across Ogmore to help them export.

Huw Irranca-Davies AC: That’s really good to hear, and, with eight days to go to close on the draft international strategy for Wales, I just wanted to make sure that all businesses, big and small, and education and training providers, within the Bridgend and Ogmore area have been fully engaged in the process, so that companies like the multi-award-winning Wales Interactive digital games developer and publisher, Airborne Systems of Blackmill, which are a global leader in parachute design, manufacture and training, Sony Bridgend and others, and the double 'excellent' Bridgend College, have all been involved in terms of putting their two-penn'orth into this strategy.
Can I invite the Minister, with my help and support, to come and visit us as soon as she can to discuss the international stagey, when it is signed off, to draw on the experience and knowledge in the Ogmore and Bridgend area? And I’m sure that the Bridgend Business Forum would be very happy to help facilitate a visit and a discussion, because the experience and the knowledge we have in what is still one of the biggest manufacturing areas in the whole of Wales, if not the UK, I think would be helpful to the Welsh Government.

Eluned Morgan AC: Well, thank you very much for that invitation; I’ll certainly take you up on that. I think that there’s a huge amount of activity already being undertaken in Bridgend. You’ll be aware that, earlier this week, the Cabinet met in Bridgend, in solidarity partly with the workers in Ford.But one of the key sectors that we're hoping to promote in the international strategy is quality tv and films, and you’ll be aware that the studio in Llanharan will be a major sales point for us. I know that there’s been great activity going on there with the filming of Brave New World. Also, on a recent visit to Germany, I met with a German company that has already invested in Bridgend and is interested in expanding that investment. So, there are real opportunities, I think, for Bridgend, and I’d be delighted to take up the Member on that invitation.

Developing the Welsh Language

John Griffiths AC: 5. What further steps will the Welsh Government take to develop the Welsh language in areas where there are fewer Welsh-speakers? OAQ54551

Eluned Morgan AC: Thank you very much, John. I'm pleased the south-east has benefited from capital funding to expand Welsh-medium education and childcare provision that are provided in the area. This, of course, will nurture new Welsh speakers. And also, through the Urdd apprenticeship schemes, 35 young people are working in the Valleys taskforce areas to support Welsh language opportunities for children and young people in the community.

The Deputy Presiding Officer (Ann Jones) took the Chair.

John Griffiths AC: Thank you very much, Minister. Welsh in Newport today is far more often heard now than when the Assembly came into existence. Welsh-medium education continues to grow, and pupils in all English-medium schools also learn Welsh. Signage and announcements are bilingual and there are opportunities for adults to learn and use the Welsh language, but the language is still relatively weak and only a little Welsh is spoken on the streets.
The Welsh Government has ambitious targets to increase the number of Welsh speakers, and we will need to see a great deal of progress in areas such as Newport. What steps will the Welsh Government take to deliver this progress?

Eluned Morgan AC: Well done, John, and thank you very much for that. I think you’re an example of how the Welsh language captures the imagination of people in areas such as Newport, and you are an example to other people in the area. So, thank you very much for the effort of learning Welsh. If more people did the same, we would reach the target of 1 million quite easily.
What's interesting is that aim of reaching that target is something that has been recognised by the council on the local level, and the fact that they will be establishing a fourth Welsh-medium school in the area is an acknowledgement, I think, that there is a need to step forward.
So, currently, about 6 per cent of children in year 7 from the area attend Welsh-medium schools. In 10 years’ time, we hope there will be 11 to 15 per cent of children of that age attending Welsh-medium schools. And the fact that we’ve been able to provide capital funding to help develop the new school is an important step, I think, in the right direction. On top of that, we are supporting a number of students to ensure that they continue to speak Welsh once they have left school. So, just to give you an example, 140 students are on early years care and health and care courses, and they have completed 10 hours of Welsh in the workplace. So, ensuring that they can use the Welsh language once they have learnt is also essential.

Paul Davies AC: Minister, the commissioner’s report 'Hawlio cyfleoedd'—'Rights in use'—shows that only 37 per cent of people believe that opportunities to use the Welsh language are increasing. So, clearly, more needs to be done to raise awareness of Welsh language services and more needs to be done to identify and improve Welsh language skills, especially in the workforce.
In response to this report, can you tell us what the Welsh Government is doing to help public bodies to improve their internal processes to ensure compliance, and what specific steps the Welsh Government is taking in areas where there are fewer Welsh speakers, in order to ensure that public bodies do have sufficient staff to provide Welsh language services in the first instance?

Eluned Morgan AC: Thank you very much. I do think that the opportunities to use the Welsh language in the workforce are increasing. You will be aware that the National Centre for Learning Welsh provides special courses for people who want to speak Welsh in the workplace. Therefore, ensuring that more people can learn is a great help, I think. But also, the work of the commissioner is to ensure that the standards in all the departments and areas where there is a need for them to comply with the new standards—it's important that they have an opportunity as well. What we have been discussing with the commissioner, and what he’s keen to do, is to ensure that not only do they police the standards but also ensure that there is an opportunity for people to promote the Welsh language, to use the Welsh language, and that that support is additionally in the system.

Promoting the Welsh Language in Monmouthshire

Nick Ramsay AC: 6. Will the Minister make a statement on the promotion of the Welsh language in Monmouthshire? OAQ54522

Eluned Morgan AC: I hope, with a wide range of partners, to promote the Welsh language in Monmouthshire. The Welsh Government has provided additional investment of £2.5 million through the Welsh-medium education and childcare capital programmes to expand provision in the local authority.

Nick Ramsay AC: Very much following a similar vein to John Griffiths's question, Minister, one of the challenges, I'm sure you'll agree, in delivering Welsh-medium education, particularly in the larger rural authorities, is the travel time from home to school. I'm pleased that Monmouthshire County Council is progressing with plans for a new second Welsh-medium education school in the north-east or north of the county, which should reduce travel times for many younger children and ensure that more parents have more choice when it comes to how their children are educated.
You mentioned capital that's available for schools—I know that Welsh Government is pledging a large amount of money for that new school in Monmouthshire, but I don't think the same applies for revenue. So, when an authority like Monmouthshire builds more schools using capital money, obviously the money they have is then spread across the area. So, could you tell us, in terms of managing and running those schools once they're up and running, what support is the Welsh Government giving to local authorities to try and keep the learning of Welsh going? Because, obviously, it's not just making an initial effort, it's then making sure that that's sustainable over months and years to come. I'm asking you, Minister, but I'm also looking at the education Minister, because the two areas are linked.

Eluned Morgan AC: Thank you very much. I think it’s clear that we have been able to provide that additional capital funding;£2.5 million has gone in to increase the capacity in Ysgol Gymraeg y Ffin in Caldicot. What’s clear, in terms of revenue, is that if these children don’t receive their education through the medium of English, then the money will be spent on Welsh-medium edcuation. So, in terms of revenue, there shouldn’t be any difference in terms of where they are and what language they’re being taught in. Therefore, it’s up to the local government to plan on the basis of the fact that they know that they have to move along the pathway where we expect more children to attend Welsh-medium schools, and they need to plan their revenue on the basis of that plan.

Alun Davies AC: I also want to take advantage of the fact that the education Minister is in her seat this afternoon. You will be aware, Minister, that Blaenau Gwent council has made an application for a new Welsh-medium primary school in Tredegar. Now, I’m not worried whether it’s in Tredegar or in any other community within the county, but I am aware that Blaenau Gwent does have to deliver on its own proposals to establish a Welsh school within the area. So, can you, Minister, ensure that the local authority does adhere to its expressed intention to ensure that there is a new Welsh-medium primary school in Blaenau Gwent, and that the Government is clear in its ambition to enable people and children in my constituency to receive the same kind of education as is available to others across the country?

Eluned Morgan AC: Thank you very much. The council in Blaenau Gwent had been very clear that they wanted to see an expansion—they’d signed an agreement to say that they wanted to see an expansion in Welsh-medium provision. The Welsh Government has provided 100 per cent of the capital funding to open a new school, but it looks likely that they are trying to pull back from that situation. I’m aware that the Minister for Education has already spoken with the person responsible for education in Blaenau Gwent. They had agreed the strategy, it’s their strategy now, and we, as a Government, will expect them to ensure that they do give priority to that and deliver what they said they were going to do.

Tourism in Merthyr Tydfil and Rhymney

Dawn Bowden AC: 7. Will the Minister make a statement on how the Welsh Government promotes tourism in Merthyr Tydfil and Rhymney? OAQ54540

Dafydd Elis-Thomas AC: The transformation of Merthyr Tydfil and Rhymney in recent years into an area offering a rich, world-class visitor experience has been a great inspiration to me in developing industrial heritage throughout Wales. In addition to that, the investment that Welsh Government has made in exciting projects, both Rock UK and BikePark Wales, emphasises the importance of recreation within a traditional industrial area.

Dawn Bowden AC: Thank you for that reply, Deputy Minister. Of course, you've been no stranger to my constituency. You've visited many times, and you've already talked about the excellent attractions of BikePark Wales and Rock UK, and of course we've got the Brecon Mountain Railway, Cyfarthfa castle, and I could go on. It doesn't just put Merthyr Tydfil on the tourist map, it puts the Valleys on the tourist map, and that's something that I want to see continue.
Like me, I'm sure that you're keen to see the potential of both activity and cultural and heritage tourism develop. And the story of our towns and their people are part of that vision. In that context, clearly I'm very pleased that the Welsh Government is now investing in Cyfarthfa Park as part of the vision for the Valleys Regional Park, and, of course, there's an emerging vision for the role of the wider Cyfarthfa experience with the Crucible project and the part that that can play in attracting far more visitors to the constituency. But in particular, I'm aware that there are some significant proposals to develop and expand some existing attractions that I referred to earlier. So, can you assure me that the Welsh Government is taking an active interest in these and is going to be a willing partner, as the business cases for further tourist developments are prepared, so that we can actually see the strategy of the Valleys taskforce around tourism being played out and that these areas reach their full tourism potential?

Dafydd Elis-Thomas AC: I'm very grateful for your appreciation of what we have been attempting to do. It's a very difficult situation here, Deputy Chair: do I look at the Member and reply to her, or do I look to you? I don't want to be declared out of order. [Laughter.]
As you mentioned, the investment that we've already made is an indication of our support for activities in Merthyr. I have visited Cyfarthfa on a number of occasions, and I think the whole Cyfarthfa Park development and, indeed, the development of the building on the site are key to our approach. The Crucible report was an essential catalyst and, of course, we have to look to the way in which we deliver at least part of the £50 million that has been earmarked—not earmarked, proposed, as necessary to transform Merthyr into a tourism destination.
But what is key to this, now, is the role of Merthyr Tydfil County Borough Council, and I'm very grateful to them for commissioning the feasibility study into the project relating to Cyfarthfa, the link with the furnaces and the viaduct across the River Taf. And I must say again—and I don't want to get into an argument with colleagues in the other kinds of heritage—but I thought that the remains of the amazing furnaces were as redolent of our heritage as any castle I have seen anywhere, north or south. So, we need to make sure that the links between Merthyr and the Blaenavon World Heritage Site, and also the link through to the National Waterfront Museum in Swansea, are developed as part of an experience of celebrating our industrial heritage that will rival the experience of our colonial heritage.

The Healthy and Active Fund

Jenny Rathbone AC: 8. What role does Sport Wales play in delivering the objectives of the Healthy and Active Fund? OAQ54526

Dafydd Elis-Thomas AC: The Healthy and Active Fund is delivered through a partnership between the Government, Sport Wales and Public Health Wales, with Sport Wales playing the lead role in the administration of the fund. The result of that is that all partners will be part of the monitoring of the project and the oversight of the fund.

Jenny Rathbone AC: Excellent. Since the Government decided to revise the free swimming offer and make it more explicitly targeted on areas of deprivation, I've had lots of correspondence from some of the 6 per cent of over-60s who've enjoyed the untargeted free swimming offer, but no correspondence at all from young people or their parents who may have been affected by the revised scheme for under-16-year-olds.
I'm quite keen to understand how the new, targeted offer is going to benefit more of the sorts of people who really do need to take up that offer, because, unfortunately, it's been rather a well-kept secret. In the area that I represent, we've got Pentwyn Leisure Centre, which is at the heart of a super-output area of deprivation. So, I'm really keen to understand how this new offer is going to affect them.
How is the Welsh Government, in conjunction with Sport Wales, going to measure the success of the revised scheme to ensure that those who most need to benefit—i.e. young people who have yet to learn to swim—are going to take up that free swimming offer and not be further disadvantaged by the reduction in funding?

Dafydd Elis-Thomas AC: The reduction in funding is a reduction specifically on a scheme that was clearly not reaching the populations for whom it was intended. But it certainly is our intention that the younger people should benefit from this initiative. The key, to us, is working with the leisure centres themselves and with the local authorities, and this is Sport Wales's intention.
Our Healthy and Active Fund remains a key to this, to stimulate more innovative approaches to all forms of physical activity. And, in that approach, we are also encouraging all of the authorities involved to be monitoring the response, and we will have an evaluation from Sport Wales of the impact of the changes that we have made on their recommendation.

The Kurdish Community in Wales

Leanne Wood AC: 9. How will the views of the Kurdish community living in Wales inform the development of the Welsh Government's international relations strategy? OAQ54528

Eluned Morgan AC: The draft international strategy is currently out for public consultation. I'd encourage everyone with an interest to respond and would be more than happy to receive feedback from all communities represented in Wales. All responses will be considered and evaluated as a part of that consultation process.

Leanne Wood AC: This Government has a duty to represent everyone living in this country, no matter what their background. We have a significant and influential Kurdish community living in Wales, who are, naturally, worried about the Turkish forces in northern Syria following the withdrawal of US troops. Turkey's actions risk throwing a lifeline to the far-right ISIS. ISIS prisoners have already escaped as a result of the Turkish military operation.
More atrocities will be committed in northern Syria against the Kurds unless the international community does something, not just in condemning the actions of Turkey but in terms of its dealings with companies that sell arms to that country. In Wales, we have at least three companies that deliver military equipment to Turkey. Some of them will have received public money, which means that our taxpayers have invested in companies dealing with an authoritarian state with blood on its hands.
I heard your answer earlier to my colleague, Delyth Jewell, and you didn't answer her. So, for the sake of peace, for the sake of the Kurds and everyone else who supports them, will you answer this question now, please? Will you please make sure that all Welsh Government expenditure, particularly investments in companies that could be dealing in arms to Turkey, be reviewed and stopped as a matter of urgency?

Eluned Morgan AC: Thank you.Just to make it clear, I have written to Dominic Raab already to set out that, actually, we have concerns relating to the concerns that have been expressed by some of the Kurdish community in Wales about the situation that's ongoing in those areas. Whilst we acknowledge that the UK leads on foreign affairs, we are undertaking a review of our entire export strategy at the moment and, of course, there will be issues that we will need to look at in relation to that. But I think it is clear that the announcement made by the Secretary of State today has made it clear that there will be no further arms announcements being made for the future to be sold to those areas where Syria is being attacked.

Darren Millar AC: It's not just the Kurdish community, of course, who are living here in Wales; we also have a significant Polish community. I met with the Polish ambassador in London last week, and I know that the number of Poles here in Wales is significant. In fact, of the 3 million EU citizens—

This is about the Kurdish community.

Leanne Wood AC: It's about the Kurds.

Darren Millar AC: It's a question about the international relations strategy, with respect.

It is. It is about the Kurdish community, and, if you can loosely tie it in, then I will listen, but—. The question is—[Interruption.] The question is about the Kurdish community living in Wales and the international development strategy.

Darren Millar AC: Precisely, and that is why I'm referring to other communities that also live in Wales and want to have a contribution to the international relations strategy. So, of the—[Interruption.] Of the 3 million—[Interruption.] Of the 3 million EU citizens that live in the United Kingdom, a million of those are Poles, tens of thousands of which are here in Wales and want to help shape the international relations strategy that you have. What engagement has there been with the Polish community and diaspora here in Wales in informing your international relations strategy?

Eluned Morgan AC: Thank you. There has been consultation with the honorary counsels, including the people representing Poland, so they've all received a copy of the strategy. We've also sent it to embassies throughout the United Kingdom, but I think the key thing for us to underline—and what is underlined very clearly in the strategy—is we want to celebrate those diaspora communities from abroad who have made Wales their home. One of the things that we're suggesting is that every year we will really establish and celebrate a particular community that has made a major contribution to Welsh life. So, hopefully, at some point, the Polish community, which is one of the biggest in Wales, will be one of those celebrated.

And finally on this question, Mick Antoniw.

Mick Antoniw AC: I welcome the comments that have been made about the situation with regard to the Kurdish community, and what Welsh Government can do to represent their interests. It has been a bit of an issue where we've had argued in this Chamber in the past, 'Well, because foreign affairs isn't devolved, et cetera—'—whether we can or can't debate these issues. The fact of the matter is that it is almost impossible for us as a Parliament to properly represent the views of the various minorities that live within Wales, and the international implications and connections with them. So, firstly, I welcome the fact that we are now clearly having more debates on these issues, because they are important to our communities that we do represent, and they are also very integrated with broader international issues. So, the situation with the Kurdish issue is very much tied in with relations with America at this time. There's also the whole middle east situation; we had today the Palestinian ambassador visiting, et cetera. So, can I just say I do welcome that, but if you would perhaps just confirm that you are very much supportive of the view that, those minorities that exist within Wales, we should be able to represent them in terms of the international issues that impact on those communities and their interests?

Eluned Morgan AC: I think that's absolutely right. I think that the whole agenda here is changing. I think there's recognition that the Foreign and Commonwealth Office leads in this area, but you will have heard the First Minister talk yesterday about the new constitutional settlement that we're looking for in relation to the United Kingdom, and it's clear that we will need more of a say and more of an input into, in particular, trade negotiations and areas where we have devolved responsibility. And, of course, where we have significant representation from other communities around the world living here in Wales, then of course it is absolutely right that they should have a hearing, if possible, within this Chamber as well.

Thank you very much.

3. Questions to the Assembly Commission

The next item on our agenda this afternoon is questions to the Assembly Commission. Question 1 and question 2 this afternoon will be answered by the Llywydd. Question 1—Mick Antoniw.

Pension Arrangements

Mick Antoniw AC: 1. Will the Commission make a statement on pension arrangements at the National Assembly for Wales? OAQ54555

There are three pension schemes associated with the National Assembly for Wales: the Assembly Members' pension scheme, the Assembly Members' support staff scheme and the civil service pension scheme for Commission staff.

Mick Antoniw AC: Thank you for that answer. Of course, the Commission will be aware that, in addition to the pension schemes for Assembly Members and civil servants, there is a third scheme that provides for Assembly Member support staff, as you've just mentioned. Now, my understanding is that this scheme has not been reviewed since its introduction, and, at first sight, compares very unfavourably with the other schemes. Could I ask the Commissioner for guidance on how the process of reviewing the staff pension scheme might be instigated so that we can be sure that it is fair and reflects the contribution that all our support staff make?

Thank you for that question. For clarity, the pension arrangements that Assembly Members' support staff have and the employer contribution rates to that scheme is a matter for the remuneration board, not the Assembly Commission directly, and the remuneration board did recently publish its review of staffing support but didn't put forward any proposals to change the AMSS pension scheme during that review, as, I think, you've just outlined there.
You'll know, of course, as all Members will know, that the remuneration board is undertaking a review of the determination for the sixth Assembly and its consultation of that review, covering staffing support, closed on 11 October, but I understand that Members and support staff are free to raise with the remuneration board any matters relating to the review, which would include employer contribution for the support staff pensions, and I urge any interested parties to do that.

Promoting Awareness and Understanding Of The Work of the National Assembly for Wales

Janet Finch-Saunders AC: 2. Will the Commission explain how the money allocated to promoting awareness and understanding of the work of the National Assembly for Wales in the 2019-20 budget is being allocated? OAQ54542

Engaging with all the people of Wales and championing the Assembly is one of the Commission’s strategic priorities. Promoting awareness and understanding of the work of the National Assembly is part of that. There are a couple of ways we allocate money to these priorities—through the regular budget and through the project fund. Regular funding includes support for the Youth Parliament, the Senedd shop, school visits, marketing and publicity, and that all adds up to £311,000. There are three relevant projects in the project fund for 2019-20, with a total amount of £520,000.

Janet Finch-Saunders AC: Diolch, Llywydd. According to the 2019-20 budget, the priority projects for this financial year, of course, are based on the organisational priorities, including the provision of increasing engagement with the people of Wales and using our resources wisely. Having considered the budget, I note that £311,000 was allocated to promoting awareness and understanding of work. Similarly, around the same amount is budgeted for the next financial year and was also spent in 2018-19. So, that's around £1 million dedicated, technically, to promoting awareness and understanding. It is quite a significant amount, so, really, what I'm asking, Llywydd, is how is the Assembly Commission ensuring that this spend is subjected to fairly robust scrutiny and that there is a wise use of resources that is delivering on raising awareness of the work of the National Assembly for Wales and, indeed, its Members in constituencies and across the regions of Wales?

Well, the Assembly Commission's budget is voted on by this Assembly, by all Members here present, and is scrutinised as part of the annual budget scrutiny within the Finance Committee, and I think the commissioner, Suzy Davies, has recently been in front of the Finance Committee being scrutinised on our budget proposals for the next year. We look, at all times, to do our work as effectively as possible. We welcome comments that Members have on how we can improve that and to do that as part of the scrutiny processes and in questions here. And I'm forever looking at ways where we can improve how we do our information sharing and work with the people of Wales in all parts of Wales. I seek to do that in as radical and as effective a way as possible, always being aware, of course, that we need to spend wisely.

Thank you. Questions 3 and 4 are to be answered by the commissioner, David Rowlands. Question 3, Jenny Rathbone.

Electric Vehicle Charging Points

Jenny Rathbone AC: 3. What usage has been recorded of the Assembly's electric vehicle charging points? OAQ54527

David J Rowlands AC: The Commission installed four charging points in the Tŷ Hywel car park in spring 2018 for use by staff and visitors. Since then, they have been used 692 times to supply over 6,500 kWh of power to electric cars. This has saved more than 5.5 tonnes of carbon dioxide being emitted to the atmosphere. The Commission believes that the designated parking spaces provide an incentive to use an electric vehicle and charging costs are recovered from users by the Commission.

Jenny Rathbone AC: Thank you. I'm delighted that we've saved 5.5 tonnes in the 18 months or so since they've been used, but I'd be really keen to understand exactly what type of electric charging they are, given that there are two different types of electric vehicles, because I genuinely would like to move towards using a non-polluting vehicle, as I represent one of the most polluted areas—or probably the most polluted area—in Wales. But I've not seen them, I've not seen a notice saying, 'Electric charging this way'. Do you think they could be better promoted?

David J Rowlands AC: Well, it's absolutely right, there are two systems of charging. I can't exactly answer your question with regard to that, but can I tell you that the Commission staff are there to give information with regard to CV cars to anybody and everybody in the Assembly, as both Assembly Members and the staff themselves? They do have extensive information that you can glean from them, and if you are contemplating it, as indeed there are many now contemplating going to using these EVs—electric cars, not CVs—they are actively seeking the information, I can assure you.

Rhun ap Iorwerth AC: I have used a charging point myself. I did so when I was doing a film on coming on a journey from my constituency to the Assembly, to demonstrate the challenges of using an electric vehicle because of weaknesses in the charging network across Wales. I am pleased to hear that there is work being done to encourage staff to use electric vehicles. First, can you tell us are more electric cars—? Can you tell us whether there are plans to have more electric pool cars? Recently, I think there is one on a three-year lease that was available from the Commission, and it would be a good idea to expand that fleet. Can you also tell us what discussions there have been with Government on allowing room on the estate to provide charging points for the current diesel fleet?

David J Rowlands AC: Well, can I say, again, that there's a lot of technical information that you require there? And can I say that the information is available from the staff of the Commission, who are very au fait with exactly what's going on with regard to the charging facilities and the ability to use CV cars in general?

The Climate Emergency

Leanne Wood AC: 4. What is the Commission doing to fulfil its obligations to tackling the climate emergency? OAQ54523

David J Rowlands AC: Since its formation, the Commission has sought to reduce its environmental impact. Our environmental strategy has resulted in carbon emissions reducing by 42 per cent since 2012, building on our previous achievement of a 30 per cent reduction. We have minimised single-use plastic cups and cutlery, replacing them with biodegradable alternatives, and food containers where currently possible.
As part of our new set of performance indicators, we've introduced a stretch target to reduce business-related car travel.Having achieved our current targets for carbon emissions and waste to landfill, we are working in collaboration with other UK Parliaments to develop a new set of annual environmental targets, always being mindful of the Welsh Government's 2030 target date for carbon neutrality in the public sector.

Leanne Wood AC: If we are to lead the way in tackling the climate emergency, we must set an example for other public bodies and businesses to follow. Now, while this Senedd building has been named the greenest Government in the UK, the Tŷ Hywel building doesn't fare so well. It has an energy rating of E. While improvements to energy efficiency have been made on the estate in recent years, what more can be done, for example, to heating, to lighting, food, et cetera, to improve this rating to ensure that in a climate emergency our working environment provides a good example for other people to follow?

David J Rowlands AC: Well, can I say the Assembly Commission has signed a memorandum of understanding to join the proposed Cardiff district heating scheme to invest in our estate—? Sorry, this will remove a significant proportion of our carbon footprint from the otherwise hard-to-tackle activity of heating on the estate.

Thank you.

4. Topical Questions

Item 4 is topical questions, and the first this afternoon is to be answered by the Deputy Minister for Economy and Transport. Llyr Gruffydd.

Llyr Gruffydd AC: Thank you, Deputy Presiding Officer. Of course, the context of this question has changed slightly since it was tabled, but it remains valid.

Llyr Gruffydd AC: 1. In light of the uncertainty regarding the Tomlinsons Dairy milk processing plant, and the fact that 70 dairy farms and hundreds of jobs are dependent upon it, what steps is the Welsh Government taking to support the company and the workforce? 351

Lee Waters AC: Diolch yn fawr iawn. Clearly, it's very disappointing news that the company has gone into administration, and this is distressing for the workforce and the wider supply chain, and our thoughts are with those affected. We understand some 331 people have been affected: 247 of them were laid off yesterday and the remainder retained for a short time. As I say, our thoughts are with them, as is our support. The Welsh Government is working with Wrexham County Borough Council to help all staff affected. We've set up an immediate taskforce to respond to the redundancy situation at the company, and the support and signposting event for staff will take place on Monday at Plas Pentwyn resource centre in Wrexham.

Llyr Gruffydd AC: Thank you for that response. Of course, there are a number of questions emerging from what has happened. First of all, people are scratching their heads and asking themselves, 'What went wrong?' Because, just in 2017, the company was given £22 million in investment—£5 million of that from the Welsh Government, a further £2 million from Finance Wales—and then, months later, at the end of the financial year up to March 2018, the company was registering losses of £5 million and then £2 million again in the last financial year. So, we want an assurance from Government, and we would want to see the Government showing evidence that you have done the work of researching into these plans before making that investment.
The Government, as I've seen in press reports, have said that you were aware that there were difficulties within the company and that you had been working with them for 18 months to try and work through those issues. Can you explain, perhaps, what kind of resources you provided to that end and why you didn't succeed in turning the situation around?
You mentioned the future of the workforce, and we hope very much, as you suggest, that the Government will turn every stone to ensure that there are employment opportunities for those who will lose their jobs. But the greatest question is on the future of the site. After such a substantial investment, then clearly it is a site that has brand new kit. I would assume that there would be potential to attract alternative investors to try and process milk on that site. I would want to hear what steps you are taking to attract those investors.
And the timing of going into the hands of administrators also means—it happened, in fact, just at the time when the farmers and milk producers were supposed to be provided with their cheques for milk provision in September. That means that the company has had six weeks of milk free of charge, and that will cause great losses to those farmers. So, what work is the Government doing to try and ensure that they will be paid, or receive some sort of payment, or at least be compensated in some way for that milk?
And what does this development tell us about the state of the milk processing sector in Wales? Last year, we lost Arla in Llandyrnog, now Tomlinsons in the same part of Wales, to all intents and purposes, has gone. The Government,and all of us, put great emphasis on the importance of developing a Welsh brand. Well, as a result of this, the milk won't be branded as Welsh milk but as British milk. So, it does, of course, undermine the efforts of Government to build the food and drink sector in Wales, and I want to know what you are doing to build a more viable dairy sector here in Wales.

Lee Waters AC: Thank you for those questions. I share the Member's concern and frustration, but one could be forgiven for thinking, from listening to the tone of his contribution, that this was somehow the fault of the Welsh Government. This is a commercial company. The Welsh Government has bent over backwards to help this company, as have the company's own commercial lenders. The majority of the funding given came not from the Welsh Government or the development bank, but from the banks—the banks who, we can only assume, did their own due diligence and made their own commercial judgments about whether or not investing multiple millions of pounds in this business was a sound judgment to make. They judged it was. Both the commercial lenders and the Welsh Government and the development bank reached the point towards the end of last week where clearly we thought that providing more and more credit to a company that is racking up debts and that is yet to produce any recent accounts was no longer a prudent thing to do.
Now, you asked for evidence of our support, and I can assure you that, as the local Assembly Member, Ken Skates, and Lesley Griffiths as the Minister, have ensured that Welsh Government have been paying close attention to the company. We have been in constant dialogue with them. You mentioned some of the practical support we've given them—a £5 million grant in 2018 that they fully discharged. We helped them to divest themselves of a bottling plant, which they were able to sell for around £6 million. We helped to release some of the grant obligations in that site to help give them the best possible chance of survival. The development bank themselves provided loans, not all of which have been repaid. So I don't think you can reasonably say that the Welsh Government hasn't done everything within its power to help what is a commercial company.
Now, you're right to be concerned about the impact on the industry at what is already a difficult time for the industry. Our view remains that this is a sound business if properly run, and we are hopeful that the administrators will be able to find a buyer who will be able to continue to run this facility on the site and to re-employ as many local people as possible. We have, I think, reason to be optimistic about that: GRH Food near Porthmadog was taken into administration some six months ago, and is now back functioning. So I think, in terms of the capacity of the food industry and our strategy, we can have confidence that that is in the right direction, but we can't micromanage every business nor be responsible for every management decision they make. We can do our best through our offices and through our partners to support and help, and we are confident we've done that.

The Llywydd took the Chair.

Andrew RT Davies AC: Thank you for your statement so far, Minister. I'm speaking, obviously, as the rural affairs spokesperson, and obviously the support to the workers who've lost their jobs is of critical importance. To hear the drop-in event that is arranged for Monday—hopefully it will be a first stepping stone to getting many of those individuals back into employment.
But if I could just raise two issues with you, the NFU upstairs had an event at lunch time that highlighted the impact on the dairy farm sector. About 100-plus producers were supplying the factory, as I understand it. Many now will have to take their line in the queue of creditors to the company that's in administration, and it's looking as if six weeks' worth of supply of milk most probably won't be paid for. What support can the Welsh Government give to try to make sure cashflow isn't interrupted through the autumn via the single farm payment scheme? There was an example that was highlighted to me that, under the loan scheme that the Government have made available under single farm payment, if you've had that loan within the last three years, you wouldn't be eligible for this year. I don't know whether that's correct or not, but if you could confirm that I'd be most grateful. Because apparently if you've had the loan in the last three years you are unable to, but given these force majeure circumstances for these dairy farmers, it is vital that cashflow is maintained.
Secondly, it was pleasing to hear that you're reasonably optimistic about the future of the plant, because we do not have much processing capacity regrettably for liquid milk here in Wales. Are you able to update how optimistic you believe you are in securing the long-term future of this plant so it can be put back to good use, and turn Welsh milk back into a drinkable product that can arrive on consumers' shelves and into fridges as quick as possible? Because if we do lose this plant, I believe I'm correct in saying we will not have a major liquid milk processing facility here in Wales.

Lee Waters AC: Thank you for the questions. We're as confident as we can be, but, obviously, that depends on all other things being equal, and all of the things are not equal. We know that the industry is under considerable strain. The company has faced some issues unique to the company, but also faced the issues that others are facing. The volatility of the exchange rate since the UK Government failed to deliver the deal it negotiated with the European Union, and the uncertainty that has caused, has been a significant factor in the company's position, especially in the availability of cash flow. That is a problem across the industry. [Interruption.] I'm afraid I can't hear the honourable gentleman heckling me, but I'm trying to answer the questions he poses; it may not be the answer he was looking for, but it is the truth. The impact of the uncertainty of the position with Brexit is having a palpable and real effect on the industry, and has had a specific effect in this case. It was not the only factor, but it is a significant factor. [Interruption.] The gentleman is saying it is a scandal. I would say to him that it is a scandal that he's sticking his fingers in his ears and not seeing what is happening around us and the impact of the reckless policies he's pursuing, and has been pursuing with abandon for the last three years. Well, this is the consequence of it. This is what it looks like—jobs, livelihoods, the future of industry in our country, in north Wales—the consequence of the uncertainty and the fluctuation of the exchange rate, and the impact on cash flow of businesses. Now, we can do all that we can, but that's all we can do. We cannot stop these forces that are being unleashed by him and his reckless colleagues.
In terms of the specific comments that he makes—[Interruption.] He says 'utter rubbish'. Well, I'm afraid, he quoted a loan scheme that he says has been going for three years that's only been going for one year. So, if he wants to exchange comments of 'utter rubbish', we can both play that game. I'd be happy to write to him on some of the detailed points he made.FootnoteLink I can give him a sincere commitment: we will do all we can to secure the future of this industry, and this business, but there are limits to what we can do.

Information further to Plenary

Mark Isherwood AC: Five million, I believe, of the £22 million investment in Tomlinsons in 2017 came from the Welsh Government, and, of course, that raises questions about the degree of contractual protection for the public pound. But, as we heard, this is the second milk processing plant in Wales to close, meaning that more than half of milk production is now having to be transported elsewhere. The dairy leadership board last met four years ago, but its conclusions still stand, including the need to attract top-end processors into Wales. Wales is a top milk producer across the European continent and beyond. Milk production is moving north and west because grass grows better here. How, therefore, are you, or have you, since that recommendation from the dairy leadership board four years ago, taken the actions necessary to develop and protect the processing sector in Wales, not only in terms of milk, but also in maximising the commercial opportunity to develop the components of Welsh milk, which offer exciting chances to deliver rural economic growth in the future, and marketing that to new potential owners, as you seek someone who will take it on as a growing concern?

Lee Waters AC: I do find it curious that the thrust of the criticisms is that we haven't done enough to protect the company, and then he questions the support that we have given. The two pieces of support we've directly given—the £5 million grant was for a specific scheme to help them develop and become more resilient, and the food business investment grant, which was carried out in line with due diligence and all the grant conditions were discharged—the additional support was from the Development Bank for Wales, which was to help them with cash flow and other matters, and, clearly, along with the commercial investors, we have been not able to secure the full repayment of that. But if we can be accused of anything, it's certainly not of not offering enough support to the company.
But there are things that we can't control. We often hear the gentleman talking about the merits of market. Well, the markets are at play here, and commercial, individual companies make decisions, management make decisions, and there are consequences to those decisions. We remain confident that there is a good business to be run here, and we hope the administrators are successful in providing alternative providers. We'll work with them to continue supporting them. On the broader points that the gentleman makes about support for the industry, I'll ask my colleague Lesley Griffithsto write to him to provide a detailed response.

Thank you, Deputy Minister. The next question is to be answered by the Minister for International Relations and the Welsh Language, and the question is to be asked by Alun Davies.

Catalonia

Alun Davies AC: 2. What representations has the Welsh Government made following the imprisonment of Catalonia’s elected political leaders? 352

Eluned Morgan AC: The lead for all matters relating to foreign affairs sits with the UK Government. But I have already written to the Foreign Secretary, to ask what representations the UK Government has made to the Spanish Government about the prison sentences handed down to Catalan politicians.

Alun Davies AC: Presiding Officer, I think all of us were shocked by the news this week of the imprisonment of Catalonia's political leaders. And since then, we've been shocked by the images of state violence that we see coming from Catalonia. Many of us have felt that our democracy is secure, our rights as European citizens secure and guaranteed. But we all know that, in recent years, we have seen with a terrifying clarity that these freedoms and rights that we've taken for granted are not safeguarded, and that perhaps we need to fight once again, as others have done so in the past, to secure democracy and liberty on our continent. Recent events in Catalonia have left many of us feeling frightened for the people of that country. This, Presiding Officer, simply should not be happening in Europe. It should not be allowed to happen in the European Union, and we, the peoples of Europe, must stand in solidarity with the imprisoned political leaders of Catalonia and the people of Catalonia.
The right of self-determination is a fundamental human right, incorporated into article 1 of the Charter of the United Nations. It is one of the guiding principles upon which international law, and the international order, is based. It is a right that we in Wales have exercised twice in recent years, and which the people of Scotland are debating today. Wherever one may stand on the answer to the question of independence, the right to take such a decision must be beyond question. The Government of Spain has broken this fundamental principle, and there must be consequences for its actions. Presiding Officer, the brutality of the Spanish state I believe is not compatible with its place at the European top table. The combined actions of the Spanish state, including its army, police and justice system, stand to be condemned by all those who value liberty and democracy.
I believe it is clear that crimes are being committed by the Spanish state against the Catalonian people. And it is this place, and our Government, which cannot stand by whilst allowing such crimes to be committed in our European home. I recognise that the lead for foreign affairs is with the United Kingdom Government, but I do not believe that any of us sitting here, or the people we represent, would want us to stand by and allow these things to happen on our doorstep. I believe that the Welsh Government must be saying this clearly, and using all the means at its disposal, to stand up for basic human rights in Catalonia, and our European home. I hope, Minister, that you will take these matters further with the UK Government, but also directly with the Spanish Government. It is not good enough to see Spanish police beating the people of Catalonia, and imprisoning elected leaders, because of the views they hold, and because they tried to carry out a political mandate and exercise their fundamental human right to self-determination.

Eluned Morgan AC: Well, I've noted the passion with which the Member's expressed his concern for the people of Catalonia. But I think it is worth emphasising that politicians in a democracy have a particular responsibility to work within the law, and the courts have a responsibility to enforce that law. But as the First Minister emphasised yesterday, there should be no place in a democracy for the sort of law that results in politicians being imprisoned for expressing their constitutional views. So, that has been very clearly expressed, and I think that would chime with many people's feelings within this Assembly.

Rhun ap Iorwerth AC: Whatever our views as individuals about independence for Wales, whatever our stance on the principle of smaller nations on these isles, or across Europe, insisting on their right to liberty, and to take responsibility for their own futures, the actions of the Spanish state this week, in imprisoning nine democrats for a total of 100 years for the crime of insisting on a voice for their people, should shock and appall us all.
I was in the Catalan Parliament some two months ago; I am grateful for the welcome that I and my family received there. I stood in the Chamber, where the political leaders insisted that they put their faith in the people that they represent. I stood under pictures of the speakers of that Parliament over the years—politicians who have insisted that Catalonia should be a nation and that it should have its own Parliament to safeguard its interests and give voice to its aspirations. Among them was Carme Forcadell, who is today in prison, guilty of the crime of allowing a debate in that Parliament.
That day too I was wearing this particular badge—a symbol that is to be seen in all parts of Catalonia: on houses, on cars, in windows, on the roads and pavements, and in the hearts of millions of Catalans. The symbol of unity and support for those people—people like you and me—who are imprisoned in the name of democracy. I know full well that there is a difference of view in Catalonia on the future of the country and on its relationship with the Spanish state, but that state, of course, is denying a voice to those people to decide on their own fate.

Rhun ap Iorwerth AC: No matter on what side of the debate we might be on the principle of the quest of smaller nations, like ours, to set their own direction as free nations, we cannot just accept what we have seen happening in Spain. We cannot ignore these actions by a so-called modern European state, holding political prisoners—elected representatives; a Parliament's Presiding Officer in jail. These shameful actions have already sparked protests the length and breadth of Catalonia, and they should spark outrage among all democrats.
I'm calling for a firm and unambiguous statement from Welsh Government. Minister, will you echo my call and that of my party that all of us, as parliamentarians, should condemn these incarcerations, that we call as an international community at all levels—here in Wales, on a UK level and the European level—that our colleagues are given back their freedom and that we demand respect for the fundamental human right, the right to self-determination?

Eluned Morgan AC: Thank you very much. There's a long and close history between Wales and Catalonia and we're very eager for this situation to continue. We share a number of political priorities, through our networks that we share with Catalonia. When I was preparing the Standing Orders for this new Parliament, many years ago, one of the things that I did as a member of the National Assembly advisory group was to have a long conversation with the speaker of the Catalonian Parliament to learn from them how they were organising their Parliament. So, that relationship does go back a long way. I do think that it’s very important for us to emphasise the fact that we do see this as a political problem and not, perhaps, as a problem that should be dealt with in the courts.

Neil Hamilton AC: Would the Minister agree with me that the events in Catalonia this week are an example of state terrorism? It's absolutely incredible that a modern European state could behave in the way that it has and sentence politicians to draconian terms of 10 or 12 years merely for holding what is, in effect, a national opinion poll.
The one glaring omission that there has been in the answers that we've heard this afternoon is what representations the Welsh Government is going to make to the European Union about the events in Spain? Because, after all, there is in the Charter of Fundamental Rights of the European Union, article 11, the term:
'Everyone has the right to freedom of expression. This right shall include freedom to hold opinions and to receive and impart information and ideas without interference by public authority and regardless of frontiers.'
And so, what the Catalan separatists have done in Catalonia is no more than exercise their rights under article 11. But this fits in, of course, with the scheme of politics that the EU envisages for the Europe of the future. Guy Verhofstadt said the other day:
'The world of tomorrow is not a world order based on nation states or countries. It is a world order that is based on empires.'
That's something he said at the Liberal Democrat conference in the United Kingdom just a few days ago. And Jean-Claude Juncker said, notoriously, some time ago that there could be no democratic choice against the EU treaties. And so, what the Spanish Government is doing is simply following the line of the EU leaders that there could be no democratic choice against the dictatorship of Spain. Will she give the Welsh people's view, on behalf of us all, that no modern European state should be allowed with impunity to behave in this way?

Eluned Morgan AC: I find it really strange that somebody who's proposed Brexit, who's encouraged Brexit, now wants us to go and tell the European Union what to do. I find it very odd. That is a strange way to approach politics, and, if you think we didn't have much influence before, I can suggest to you that we'll have very, very little, if the current Prime Minister succeeds in his plans to take us out on 31 October. I think it is important that we express our view to the UK Government, which is the appropriate authority. We have done that, and we have asked them what measures they are going to be taking in relation to this. They're the appropriate forum for us to express this view.

Thank you, Minister. The next item is a question to the Minister for Economy and Transport, and the question is to be asked by David Rees.

Hi-Lex

David Rees AC: 3. Will the Minister make a statement following the announcement of the closure of Hi-Lex and the loss of 120 jobs in Baglan Energy Park? 355

Ken Skates AC: Llywydd, this is clearly devastating news, and my thoughts are with the employees of Hi-Lex and, of course, with their families at this very difficult time. Our focus is now on supporting the workforce and finding alternative local employment, and, of course, this is, sadly, the latest in a series of announcements across the United Kingdom concerning job losses in the auto sector and comes on the very same day that survey data revealed that more than 80 per cent of firms in the sector are concerned for their future prospects, because of the threat of a 'no deal' Brexit.

David Rees AC: Can I thank the Minister for that answer? The Hi-Lex Cable System Company Limited actually was one of the first businesses to move onto the Baglan Energy Park back in the 1990s. It's been there for over 20-odd years, and it's been in profit. You quite rightly pointed out that one of the problems it's now facing is the loss of customers because of the uncertainty in the automotive sector, particularly Honda closing in Swindon, which is one of its major customers. This is not a situation where a business is actually closing down; the business is transferring to another part of the European Union. It's going to Hungary, and this site will actually close within probably about 12 months—they've guaranteed, at this point of time 12 months, no redundancies. But who knows, if Honda goes earlier, what will happen as a consequence of that?
Now, the situation for workers is—. And there are no trade unions within the business, so there is no organisation basically there to help support workers in any redundancy discussions, so will the Welsh Government step in and talk with Hi-Lex to allow it to work with the employees to ensure that individuals, who may be facing redundancy in the coming months, are able to actually get the best deal situation possible and they're not left without any representation whatsoever? Will you also talk to Hi-Lex to see how you can help and work with them to ensure that the 12 months they've given at the moment is going to be 12 months, and we don't actually see a shortening of that? Will you also work with the local authority? Because, clearly, if we're trying to find new employment, we need to attract new investment, we need to encourage growth within local businesses. Because these are well-paid, high-skilled jobs that are leaving this area, and 125 families that are now facing a difficult future because of the unknown of what will happen beyond their employment at that company.
It is important the Welsh Government now steps up to the mark, and also the UK Government needs to step up to the mark, because, clearly, the whole manufacturing sector across the UK is struggling, because of Brexit, because of other circumstances, because of global economies. And I don't see the UK Government stepping up to the plate. Welsh Government has to step up to the plate now. And will you give me the guarantees, and will you give the workers those guarantees, that Welsh Government will act and will help them and will support them as best possible?

Ken Skates AC: Well, can I thank Dai Rees for his questions? And I'm sure that Dai Rees will share my concerns about the future welfare of those workers as they face a very anxious time between now and 2020 or possibly 2021, when the site is due to close. We will, of course, press the company to ensure that there is at least 12 months of work for those people who are affected by today's announcement. Those 12 months will give us sufficient time to ensure that the ReAct programme is enabled and that we have full access to all workers on site. The ReAct programme has a very strong record of supporting individuals, and I'm pleased that we do have good relations with Hi-Lex. So, I am confident that the company will enable access to be established for those ReAct teams.
I'm also confident that we'll be able to work very closelywith the local authority in identifying other employment opportunities. We in Welsh Government have set up regional response teams ahead of Britain leaving the European Union, should Britain leave the EU, and those regional response teams will include individuals from within local authorities across Wales. Dai Rees identified the primary cause of the loss of this company, and it is, of course, Honda’s announcement that it would be closing the Swindon facility. After Honda made that announcement, I asked Welsh Government officials to convene a round-table discussion with businesses in Wales in the Honda supply chain. That summit was very well attended by pretty much all of the 20 supply-chain businesses that we have in Wales. I can tell Members that the vast majority of businesses within the Honda supply chain here in Wales rely for only a small proportion of their work on Honda. However, there are a very small number that rely to a significant extent on Honda. We’ve been working with them very closely, including Hi-Lex.
Since we had that round-table discussion, I can also tell Members that we’ve been assisted by officials within the Department for Business, Enterprise and Industrial Strategy in the UK Government, and by the Welsh Automotive Forum. But Dai Rees makes the very important point that the UK Government must step up to the mark on this. I’m due to meet with the Secretary of State for BEIS tomorrow, in London, where I will be making the strongest possible case for the UK Government to allocate funding to the Kingfisher programme, which is looking at businesses that are at risk as a consequence of Brexit uncertainties.
We have stepped up to the plate in rolling out Brexit business resilience funding to a significant number of businesses across Wales. We stepped up to the plate in establishing the Ford taskforce, and in attracting INEOS Automotive to Wales. It’s time for the UK Government to do so likewise.

Russell George AC: Minister, thank you for your answer to David Rees. During questions to the Minister for international relations earlier, I wasn’t sure if you were in to hear the question or not, but I highlighted the evidence that the Minister gave to the external affairs committee the other week suggesting that the Welsh Government would be placing more emphasis on exports rather than attracting inward investment. So, perhaps I could ask you to outline whether you feel that approach does need to be reviewed, given the announcement of companies such as Ford and Hi-Lex, as we’ve heard today. And, in the immediate future, can I ask you how you are going to look to support Hi-Lex? And, as David Rees has mentioned in his question, the workers are highly skilled and, of course, will be anxious ahead of 2021. You’ve mentioned the ReAct programme, but I wonder if you can outline how specific programmes can be specifically adapted to this particular situation?

Ken Skates AC: Can I thank Russell George for his questions? Now, in terms of exports, exports form one of our calls to action in the economic action plan—one of the five criteria that businesses can utilise to draw down funding from the consolidated grant funding programmes that Welsh Government operates. All evidence points to the fact that, if you wish to drive up productivity rates within an economy, you have to have a higher proportion of businesses that are operating within those tradeable services sectors and which are globally exposed. That means you have to have a high proportion of businesses that are exporting. It’s absolutely vital. That’s the reason why we included exports as one of the channels to fund businesses in the economic action plan, and why the international relations Minister is so keen to promote exports within her international strategy and to identify those champions for exports right across Wales and to utilise their experiences and their skills to encourage other businesses to export more.
In terms of foreign direct investment, I have to say that opportunities to draw in investment right now from overseas are few and far between, given the uncertainty attached to Brexit. They haven’t dried up altogether. One example of a recent success story was, of course, INEOS Automotive. We competed with destinations across Europe and indeed the globe to win that particular investment, but it is incredibly difficult right now to attract investment to the UK. Nonetheless, our efforts will be guaranteed for the future, and we’ll do all we can to attract high-quality, well-paid,sustainable jobs to Wales—those jobs that form the industries of tomorrow.
In terms of the ReAct programme, the first thing that we'll be doing is ensuring that we have an accurate picture of the skill sets of individuals within the company. From there, we'll then seek to engage each individual with Careers Wales, with the Department for Work and Pensions, and any other support service that they require, and that could include support services that concern their mental health and well-being. We will then assess what opportunities there are within the sector and more broadly in associated sectors that could utilise their skills. I'm confident that, because those people who are employed at Hi-Lex are so highly skilled, they do have a very great prospect of future employment, but my concern is with ensuring that they don't undergo a period of unemployment between now and when they secure alternative employment after 2020 or 2021.

Dai Lloyd AC: Can I thank the Minister for his answers thus far and just explore a couple of issues perhaps in a little bit more depth? Obviously, the Hi-Lex cable system plant in Baglan is on Baglan energy park, and you might find a couple of Assembly Members' regional offices on Baglan energy park as well; Bethan Sayed and I share an office not far from this company.
So, yes, it's a car parts plant, it supplies Ford and Honda, it makes cables, windows and door parts for cars, and today's announcement, as you've said, says that it will close in Baglan when the Honda plant closes in Swindon in two years' time. The plant, obviously, in Baglan closes, but the production won't cease; the production will be transferred to Hungary, which remains in the EU at that point. Now, obviously, this is, as you've alluded, an extremely disappointing decision from Hi-Lex today, and is yet another blow, as Dai Rees has said, to the economy of the region, so soon after the news that Ford in Bridgend will be closing too, and they also supply Ford.
Now, once upon a time, south Wales was the catalyst for the industrial revolution and was the world's manufacturer at one point. And now we are seeing yet another multinational corporation let down their loyal Welsh workforce and move production elsewhere, this time to Hungary. It's devastating news for the 125 workers and their families in Baglan and further afield. Time and again, we have seen jobs being lost in South Wales West, and indeed elsewhere in Wales, because the Welsh Government is failing to drive innovation in industries that simply have no choice but to innovate if they want to survive.
We know all about the changes in car production that need to happen, but other Governments have managed innovative change, like in Ottawa in Canada, where the Ontario and Canadian Governments co-invested in a new Ford research and development centre there, working on autonomous vehicles. There is change in car production—new cars, different cars in the future. It doesn't mean that the industries here have to be ossified in what they've always done. That Canadian centre opened earlier this year with more than 300 jobs.
Back to Baglan, according to the announcement, no jobs will go for the next 12 months—the plant is allegedly going to stay open until 2021—so, on the face of it, there is time to plan. I hear what you're saying about ReAct, but usually in these sort of circumstances we have an announcement that so many hundreds of jobs are going at whatever plant there is, and that is it—three months, everything shuts. That's not the situation in this particular case, so can I just explore with the Minister in perhaps greater detail, so the plans—? We do have time here to plan for the future of workers here in Baglan, because the jobs are going to carry on for 12 months, according to management. So, how are we planning a smoother transition so that we keep those jobs here in south Wales, and perhaps expanding on the idea of not just more retraining and everything and a refocus for workers, but obviously trying to develop a vision of what an automotive plant is going to be in Wales: are we still going to be doing car parts, and, if so, for what sort of cars? Are we going to innovate or are we just going to stand by and watch successive car plants like this close day by day? I'm just trying to secure a long-term vision here from the Minister. Diolch yn fawr.

Ken Skates AC: Can I thank Dai Lloyd for his questions and, first of all, say that I disagree with your assessment about the support that the Welsh Government is giving to manufacturing in Wales and the importance of innovation? We're just about to open the doors on the advanced manufacturing research centre in north Wales. That will be a unique research centre. Indeed, your own Members have called for an AMRC in Wales. I hope that you'll be supporting its launch in November.
We have Europe's finest, if not the world's finest, compound semiconductor cluster; we have M-SParc, again in north-west Wales; we have Aston Martin Lagonda, who have decided to make south Wales the home of their electrification programme. There is innovation across the length and breadth of Wales as a consequence of the strategic investment by this Welsh Government. That investment is futureproofing our economy. But the position that this company found itself in was such that it could not survive without important contracts from Honda. Their troubles were compounded by a decision by Volvo to adopt an engine that would use an electric transmission that would not require cabling. Those two factors put the company's future in jeopardy here in Wales.
The Member identified examples in Ottawa of success, but the obvious difference between Ottawa and Wales is that Ottawa is not currently in the European Union, facing crashing out, and this is a major threat for the sector. And if we look at other businesses across the UK right now, that survey that I mentioned earlier, we'll find that 11.8 per cent of firms in the automotive sector, almost 12 per cent of businesses in that important sector, have already divested from UK operations. The sector is potentially at the point of meltdown as a consequence of the indecision, inaction and the failure of the UK Government to actually act to support it. And, as I said, tomorrow I will be pressing the UK Government to back up positive rhetoric about the future of the automotive sector with hard cash for the Kingfisher fund.
I think there are two major opportunities in south Wales, in terms of the transition that the Member identifies, and I would agree that we do need to have a seamless transition to, if you like, new automotive sector activity within south Wales. First of all, the obvious opportunity is with alternative propulsion systems—most obviously electric, but also, potentially, with hydrogen. We're working on those opportunities, not just with the Wales automotive forum, but also, I have to say, with BEIS at a UK Government level, trying to attract as many investment opportunities as we possibly can and challenge fund grants as possible to Wales. The other big opportunity, Llywydd, concerns the lack at the moment of recycling facilities for batteries, and also for composites. So, again, we're looking at opportunities for this region to capitalise on that shortage of such facilities.

And finally, Suzy Davies.

Suzy Davies AC: Diolch, Llywydd. I'll be very brief, you'll be glad to hear. The first question is about the timing of this announcement. We also know that INEOS is coming to just outside Bridgend in the near future. Is there any good news about the opportunity potential here, because the redundancies won't be for a year? Is there any news coming from INEOS that may offer some comfort to the workers there?
Secondly, I hear what you say about Aston Martin Lagonda; do announcements like this risk those growing shoots of confidence in what we offer to the automotive industry here in Wales?
And then, just lastly, some of the announcements we've had lately on company and firm closures have been from much smaller companies, supply-chain companies. Is there anything that Welsh Government is doing at the moment to help that type of company, as opposed to your Dawnuses and your Tatas, just really lift their eyes and understand that there are issues for them in the future and that they might want to think about diversifying and not relying so much on one individual major customer?

Ken Skates AC: Absolutely. I would agree entirely with Suzy Davies on this point. And the reason that we hosted the summit for Honda supply-chain businesses was because we wished to ascertain just the extent to which businesses were exposed to Honda's decision and whether they were looking at diversifying and whether there was any prospect of those businesses attracting contracts from other OMUs.
Now, in terms of diversification, some businesses are so specialised within the automotive sector that it's very difficult for them to find or developalternative products to manufacture or assemble in Wales, but for others there most certainly are opportunities.
Members in north Wales will know that I recently wrote to them concerning the Vauxhall plant in Ellesmere Port. After the Honda announcement, I asked officials within the Welsh Government, working with officials in the UK Government, to gather intelligence on Wales's exposure, given that PSA have said that future investment in the Ellesmere Port plant is dependent on the outcome of Brexit negotiations.
As a consequence of that evidence and intelligence-gathering effort, we've been able to appreciate the extent to which the supply chain in Wales is exposed to the potential loss of Vauxhall. It's my intention, as a next step, to convene a further summit of all automotive supply-chain operators in Wales—there are many, and they do employ a huge number of people—to encourage them to look at diversification, to identify opportunities with them, to work with them where possible and to plug into opportunities in the UK industrial strategy, as well as through the economic action plan, to ensure their long-term viability.
Suzy Davies also makes the very important point that we shouldn't lose sight of the fact that there are significant numbers of jobs being created in south Wales right now in the automotive sector. INEOS will be creating 500 jobs in the coming years—initially 200 at the start-up point. I was pleased to note very recently that Aston Martin Lagonda announced that it intends to increase the number of people that it takes on for the St Athan site from 700 to 1,000. So, significant numbers of jobs are being created.
The common theme, of course, with the two is that the Welsh Government has been critically important in attracting those businesses to south Wales. It's my intention to maintain the effort that we initiated in drawing as many employers as possible and as we can to a region that is suffering as a consequence of decisions by Ford, Honda and other businesses.

Thank you, Minister.

5. 90-second Statements

The next item is the 90-second statements, and the first statement is from Suzy Davies.

Suzy Davies AC: Diolch eto, Llywydd. It's probably no surprise to hear from me on this, but today, 16 October, is Restart a Heart Day. Organisations from across the world are coming together to increase our awareness of just how important it is to have the knowledge and confidence to step in if someone suffers a cardiac arrest. There are training events taking place across Wales, not only today but throughout the rest of the week and the month, and I hope some of you will join me in a training session tomorrow here that's being hosted by Welsh Hearts. Other voluntary organisations are also taking part in this widespread, global movement now.
Members of the public will be coming tomorrow as well, and they can learn how to use a defibrillator and, of course, how to administer CPR if somebody has a cardiac arrest. These skills are just so easy to learn and they save lives, and this is why I'm encouraging you all to come tomorrow, if you can.
When someone suffers a cardiac arrest, their chances of survival plummet by 14 per cent for every minute that passes without treatment, so these skills are so critical. In countries where lifesaving is part of the curriculum, like in Norway and Denmark, as well as certain states in the US, your chances of surviving an out-of-hospital cardiac arrest can be as high as 50 per cent, because the population at large has the skills that they can use. Here in Wales that figure is just 3 per cent. I don't think that's acceptable and I really don't think that's good enough for people here in Wales.
So, whether you've had training before or whether you've never met a Resusci Annie, we all have something we can contribute in the case of an emergency. Your actions could help save a life. Please make sure you attend a training course. Thank you.

Ann Jones AC: This Friday, 18 October, is Show Racism the Red Card or Wear Red Day. It's an opportunity for all of us to reflect on the devastating effects that racial abuse can have on everyday life in our schools, communities and even on a sports field.
Nobody can be unaffected by the dreadful scenes from Bulgaria last Monday, involving racist chanting and gestures towards the England football team. The scenes we witnessed were chilling, distressing and, above all else, totally unacceptable, either on the sports field or anywhere else. So, I'm pleased that the Football Association of Wales and the Welsh clubs are supporting the red card month of action to highlight the problem and support the efforts of the campaign to educate us all that racism has no part in any life.
We have a duty to call it out, and that's why I'll be supporting Show Racism the Red Card on Friday. We are a proud sporting nation—wearing red comes naturally to us, whether it's the rugby or the football shirt. But, every time we put that red shirt on, we should pause to remember what the message of Friday is: stand up to racism.
We are a proud nation, proud to celebrate our rich diverse culture, and join other to celebrate in theirs. It's what makes us tick. And we should stand up to those who, by their narrow-minded views, aim to destroy this, especially now as we see race and hate crimes rising. That's why not just this Friday, but every day, we should show racism the red card—dangos y cerdyn coch i hiliaeth.[Applause.]

6. Debate on a Member's Legislative Proposal: Single-use Plastics

The next item is a debate on a Member's legislative proposal, and this item is on single-use plastics, and I call on Huw Irranca-Davies to move the motion. Huw Irranca-Davies.

Motion NDM7155 Huw Irranca-Davies
Supported by Alun Davies,Andrew R.T. Davies, David Rees,Dawn Bowden, Delyth Jewell,Hefin David, Jack Sargeant,Jayne Bryant, Joyce Watson, Neil McEvoy, Rhianon Passmore, Vikki Howells
To propose that the National Assembly for Wales:
1. Notes a proposal for a Bill on the use of single-use plastics.
2. Notes that the purpose of this Bill would be to:
a) significantly reduce the use of single-use plastics based on the best international practice and research, which would establish Wales as a world-leader in reducing plastic waste;
b) introduce appropriate taxes and levies to significantly reduce the production and use of single use plastics in Wales;
c) introduce a cross-government action plan including a comprehensive suite of measures to significantly reduce use of single use plastics;
d) establish targets and milestones for the reduction of specific single-use plastics.

Motion moved.

Huw Irranca-Davies AC: Diolch, Llywydd.Wales is in a great position to lead globally on significantly reducing single-use plastic waste, using the best international practice, evidence and research, using our new powers over taxes and levies to drive behavioural change, and by bringing forward a cross-Government action plan with a comprehensive suite of measures, targets and milestones. We can stop the rising plastic tide and we must, because it is increasingly seeming more like a tsunami than a tide.
Around 40 per cent of plastic is used in packaging in the UK, and the UK generates around 2.4 million tonnes per year of packaging waste, of which around 1.7 million tonnes is from households. Over 90 per cent of plastics are derived from fossil fuels, so they account for 6 per cent of global oil consumption, equivalent to the aviation industry. According to a 2016 report, around 237 million coffee cups and 183 million coffee-cup lids are consumed annually in Wales, representing 2,600 tonnes of coffee cups and 550 tonnes of lids. It's estimated that only 0.25 per cent are recycled. And, shockingly, 72 per cent of plastic packaging is reported to be leaked into the environment or sent to landfill worldwide.
We know that macroplastics are polluting our rivers and soil, our beaches and seas, from surface waters to deep ocean trenches, and microplastics are contaminating our pristine arctic ice and snow in the high Pyrenees, remote lakes in Mongolia and the Great Lakes of North America, floodplain soils in Switzerland, the sands of the Sahara, and the very groundwater and rainwater that feeds our crops and gives us water to drink. Having wrapped our food and everything else in plastic, this wonder material of twentieth-century science, we're now wrapping the planet in plastic too. And microplastics have been found in mussels, in fish, in chickens and even in honey—in honey. With the notable exception of vegans, this carries a whole new twist on 'You are what you eat.'
Plastics are so useful in so many ways, yet in our throwaway culture single-use plastics are now destroying the planet we love, and are trashing the environment we see around us and the microenvironment we can't see so easily. So, let's look at some of the ways in which legislation can help turn the tide on plastics.
Complete bans on single-use plastics like carrier bags, done in Bangladesh and in Canada, have worked; plastic straws have been banned in some US states, and cutlery banned in France have proven the easiest way to make a dramatic effect. In Wales, we should actually take a broader approach, and we should include cotton bud sticks and cutlery, beverage stirrers and straws, plates, sticks for balloons, expanded polystyrene food containers, beverage containers and cups, wet wipes, plastic sauce sachets, and we should consider now phasing out all single-use carrier bags totally.
We should act on the significant confusion over the recyclability of materials in Wales, despite our great success in improving recycling rates, and find ways such as Ellie's Fund to raise awareness of how to recycle more difficult materials like pens, crisp packets, toothbrushes and cleaning bottle tops. Introducing a 'made in Wales, recycled in Wales' trademark and logo would drive reuse and recycling within Wales, as would proposals to require businesses to remove and recycle the plastics in delivered items, from food packaging to washing machines, or hay bales wrapped in plastics, as we saw earlier on today.
Funding initiatives to promote the switch to reusable sanitary items could help engage with schools and GPs and prenatal support centres. Considering mandating water fountains in public spaces could bolster Wales's ambition to be a water refill nation. And, let me say, financial mechanisms work. Introducing a 5p paper cup levy led to a 156 per cent increase in the use of reusable cups in just six weeks in Starbucks in London. It works. Evidence shows the greater the plastics levy, the greater the impact. In Wales, we could extend this to harmful products that fall outside the extended producer responsibility and market restrictions, so plastic clothing and balloons, chewing gum, single-use pens, protected postal packaging and wet wipes. Deposit-return schemes are globally proven to increase recycling rates, reduce contamination and simplify materials' use. Whilst the UK mulls over this, a deposit-return scheme centrally administered here in Wales could create jobs, spur market demand, and ensure the benefits of such a scheme are kept in Wales, and we should, in doing this aim, ensure that all containers of all sizes are within these DRS measures.
We could introduce a carefully targeted single-use plastics tax based on the proportion of recycled material in the product and with penalties for virgin plastic use. We could offer as well tax incentives, such as temporary tax relief or reductions for support of sustainable procurement and bulk purchasing in business improvement districts for zero-waste towns, or for other organisations pursuing zero-waste status, such as schools and hospitals, or even individual zero-waste retailers and businesses and reuse and repair initiatives. And we should bring forward an action plan on single-use plastic reduction, addressing different sectors appropriately, much like, I have to say, the current Welsh Government decarbonisation plan, focusing on key areas like social care and farming, tourism and construction. In tourism, for example, Presiding Officer, a zero-waste Wales could be our destination offer to the world, not just an ambitious waste policy. On procurement, we could develop revised and strengthened guidelines to promote sustainable procurement through our anchor institutions, like health boards, education authorities, housing and social care services, and get rid of anomalies like plastic milk cartons being used in schools. We could introduce a requirement for all publicly funded events, programmes and projects to ban single-use plastics, and go further to ensure that all events, including food festivals and sporting events, should commit to a ban on single-use plastics as part of their permitting requirements. And in respect of targets and milestones, we can go further than the single-use plastic directive and introduce in Wales a measurement of how this affects carbon emission reductions and analysis of litter data and waste composition.
Now, these are just some opening thoughts on what this legislation could do. I look forward to hearing from fellow Assembly Members and the Minister too, before I conclude what I'm sure will be a very constructive debate on how to stop the plastic tide.

Delyth Jewell AC: I’d like to thank Huw Irranca-Daviesfor bringing this motion before the Senedd. I was very pleased to support the motion to propose legislation to reduce single-use plastics on behalf of Plaid Cymru.
Since plastic has been used on an industrial scale, pollution because of that has increased daily to the huge scale that we see today, for the simple reason that plastic doesn't rot over time. According to Beachwatch, there's been an increase in the last decade of plastic for every 100m of coastline, from 381 pieces to 485 pieces. Now, every piece of plastic pollutes that environment and has a terrible impact on natural life.
The environment committee in the Senedd heard recently from Cardiff University that half of the insects in the Taf had plastics in them, and microplastics were a plague in Welsh rivers. This isn’t a problem that we can recycle our way out of either, because of the nature of plastic, and it’s a cause of huge concern that over 60 per cent of the plastics that Wales recycles is exported. A nation that wants to be globally responsible shouldn't be exporting pollution elsewhere.
I announced recently that Plaid Cymru in Government would aim towards the banning of unnecessary single-use plastic by the middle of the next decade. The Welsh Government could start that work now by announcing its intention to ban single-use plastic bags as soon as possible, as 70 nations have already done, aiming then to ban wet wipes and polystyrene, and some of the other things that Huw Irranca-Davies has already mentioned.
There are other steps that can be taken, including educating people on the need to reduce their use of single-use plastics;labelling plastic products in order to enable consumers to make informed decisions in buying goods; promoting goods that don’t add to the problem with a particular label, as Fairtrade has done already in a different way for ethical products; introducing a levy on products such as single-use cups, as has already been mentioned, to encourage people to use their own caps; and to introduce regulations to reduce use in festivals and so on.
Llywydd, Plaid Cymru is pleased to support this legislative proposal today as a small but significant step on the road towards eradicating single-use plastics from our economy. Thank you.

Jenny Rathbone AC: I'm very pleased to support Huw Irranca's initiative, because we really can't go on eating plastic and breathing in plastic particles in the air we breathe. We cannot stand by and do nothing to prevent the plastic mountains we are creating from increasing further, according to the briefing we had from the various charities that are supporting this initiative, because of our failure to find more sustainable alternatives for everyday low-tech items, when there are so many other alternative materials we can be using.
We can be proud of our recycling record in Wales, being third in the world, but we need to do more—we cannot stand by and see our oceans being poisoned. In the Public Accounts Committee on Monday, we were looking at our performance on municipal recycling and two things we heard stick in my mind. One is that the corn starch bags for food recycling that are handed out for free by many local authorities, but charged for by others, were, in fact, clogging up the machinery used to process food waste, and that many local authorities were now going to be reverting to asking people to put them into plastic bags instead, which they were then going to extract at the recycling plant. Now, that seems absolute madness to me. What's wrong with a bit of newspaper to wrap up your chips or your food waste? That seems to me a much better way of lining the food caddy, and I don't understand why local authorities aren't moving straight to that much more sustainable and less harmful material.
Secondly, we heard that the recycling of rubbish on the go at major public events like sporting events was really in its infancy—that people hadn't really got the idea that just because you've got a bottle in your hand, you can either just chuck it on the floor or that you put it in the residual waste bin. It was great to see at the Eisteddfod that there were separate bins provided so that people could put it into the plastic, the paper or the residual waste, but it does need quite a lot of supervision.
So,just want to applaud the people who organised the Cardiff Half Marathon that was held earlier this month, because they're put a great amount of effort into ensuring that when we do have these large events—and obviously, a marathon doesn't just involve operating in one field, but over quite an extensive area—they really thought about the sorts of things they needed to do. For a start, they were employing a cleansing team to work at the event with participants, to ensure that waste wasn't contaminated, preventing it from then being recycled; putting food into the hard material recyclable waste is an absolute no-no; and they also worked with their water partner, Brecon Carreg, to offer smaller water bottles made of recyclable plastic, to enable people to understand the importance of recycling and sustainability. They have—

You need to bring your contribution to an end. I have a number of speakers who want to contribute.

Jenny Rathbone AC: Okay. And they've phased out plastic goody bags at the event. All events could be doing this sort of thing to ensure that we're not producing this more, but we may need legislation in order to focus our minds.

David J Rowlands AC: We must be careful, in any debate on the use of plastic, not to throw the baby out with the bath water. There are many legitimate cost-effective and sensible uses for plastic. So, if we are to be effective in our fight against plastic pollution, we have to concentrate our efforts on those uses that are totally avoidable, or on those whose use is extendable. It is the single-use plastic items that we should aim to drastically reduce, or, better still, eradicate entirely. I think we would all agree that the use of single-use plastic items is now at epidemic levels. There is also no doubt that single-use plastic items are a major contributor to the Earth's pollution levels. The chief culprit is, of course, the throwaway plastic bottle. The statistics are horrendous. The human race purchases 1 million plastic bottles every minute. Only 23 per cent are recycled, which means over three quarters are left to pollute the planet. There has been an exponential rise in the use of plastic bottles over the last few decades, primarily due to the purchasing of bottled water, almost unheard of in the UK until the 1980s, and limited primarily to glass bottles on the continent and the rest of the developed world. The soft drinks industry as a whole is a major factor in single-use plastic figures.
So, we know the problem—is there a long-lasting, sustainable answer? I think we should all agree that there is no silver bullet solution. It will be found in a number of interventions, some of which we in Wales may activate unilaterally, and others that will need UK and international co-operation and implementation. The options for unilateral interventions for Wales are limited. The possibility of introducing a deposit-return system has been discussed in Plenary previously. I am a great believer in this solution, with the proviso that the deposit element must be at a level that will truly encourage people to recycle. We could explore the possibility of encouraging producers and supermarkets to reduce their use of plastic packaging, and we can establish recycling banks to facilitate the recycling of bottles.
We were, of course, the first to introduce a charge for plastic bags, but given that, worldwide, 4 trillion plastic bags are issued every year, with only 1 per cent recycled, perhaps we could consider an outright ban on plastic bags in Wales, which, as with the charge, may be replicated by all UK Governments.
I thank the Member for Ogmore for bringing this debate to the Chamber. We must not leave this as an interesting discussion. The Welsh Government must do everything in its power to help mitigate this environmental disaster, and we are pleased to support this legislative proposal.

Rhianon Passmore AC: Can I begin, also, by thanking my colleague Huw Irranca-Davies for bringing this debate forward today and the fellow Members from across the Chamber who also supported this legislative proposal? Plastic waste is one of the most visible symptoms of environmental damage and a legacy we must not be accused of leaving to our future generations. Our oceans, rivers, beaches, fields and hedgerows are all too often filled with discarded single-used plastics, as are the ecosystems they provide.
With this groundbreaking legislative proposal, we have a real opportunity to make Wales an international example of best practice when it comes to reducing single-use plastics. As individuals, there are changes that we can and we should all make to reduce our plastic waste, but it is my firm belief that we cannot achieve the huge reductions in single-use plastics that we need with individual action alone. This is not to negate it, but all too often it is used as excuse for a lack of legislative action.
So, this is an issue that we must all take extremely seriously, both as legislators and citizens, as part of the climate emergency that this Chamber and this Welsh Government have rightly declared. I believe, as does this Welsh Government, that for the sake of our future generations, we must take action immediately before the situation gets any worse, and I would therefore like to praise the actions being taken in my own constituency right now. Caerphilly council have pledged to spend every penny of the Welsh Government's period dignity grant for the borough only on plastic-free menstrual products. This example of positive public procurement, being led by Councillor Philippa Marsden and thanks to the Cardiff-based campaigner Ella Daish, is a fine example of how institutions in Wales can use their powerful procurement power to cut down on plastic waste and lead the way. Hygiene and sanitary products are often amongst the highest causes of single-use plastic waste, and any way in which we can incentivise voluntary switches to more environmentally friendly alternatives should be welcomed.
Government—local, regional, national and international—must do more than play a part. They must lead the way and fight the fight like never before. Though I know there are many examples of best practice across Wales, more often than not these are individual schemes, so this innovative and important Bill could help to facilitate both a holistic and a strategic approach in reducing plastic waste, and it should not be up to the Greta Thunbergs of this world to point out where nations lead and then be castigated for it.
We in Wales have fully recognised the urgency and declared—the first to do so—a climate emergency. For most in this Chamber, the debate has moved on. It is no longer why, but how we now deliver on our mandate. Immediately establishing national targets and an important cross-governmental action plan demonstrates how seriously we're taking the climate emergency so that Wales can become a world leader in reducing its consumption of single-use plastics. So, I urge all Members of this Chamber to recognise climate change and work with us in making that needed change, and move Wales out of climate emergency and into climate stability.

Llyr Gruffydd AC: I welcome and support this legislative proposal. In listing many of the steps that could be taken, it started to sound like the Plaid Cymru manifesto back in 2016, but certainly I am very pleased to see that the ambition of seeing Wales being a world leader in this area is one that's included within the motion. Because, I have to say, we haven’t seen enough done by the Welsh Government on this to date, and this joint working with the Westminster Government—well, they are not in a particularly good place at the moment. I think they are slightly too dysfunctional to be operating at the pace that we would like to see them operating at. In the meantime, we see Scotland forging ahead to implement some of these ideas. So, I think there is a lesson for us in that regard.
Now, the climate change committee has been looking at this area and has called for a 10-year strategy to reduce the use of plastics and, however we do that, it’s important we look at particular sectors, be that social care, agriculture, tourism, construction or health. I noticed this week that the NHS in England had pledged to cut 100 million items of plastic per year from English hospitals, including straws, cutlery, cups and so on. So, where are we in Wales? Why don’t we share those same ambitions?
Now, a deposit-return scheme is something that we in this party have said needs to be implemented for years. 10 per cent of waste comes from plastic bottles and cans that could be recycled through such a scheme. Extended producer responsibility—we have to shift the cost from the taxpayer to the producer of dealing with this waste, and, if we do that, then it won’t be long until they do respond by taking action and working differently and producing less of this waste in the first instance.
We heard of the possible contribution of different levies and I agree—we need to look at things such as clothes that include plastics, we need to look at balloons, we need to look at single-use pens. One of the things that angers me is receiving all of this packaging in the post. We do have to be far less content to accept these situations. We need to look at exemptions for zero-waste shops. And another thing we’ve been calling for consistently over the years is that we need to change planning regulations for licensing festivals and public events, which means that, if there is any use of single-use plastic, then that event can’t happen. It can be done, so come on, Welsh Government—where is the momentum? Where is the enthusiasm? Because time is not in our favour and my patience is starting to run out.

Jayne Bryant AC: I'd like to thank Huw Irranca-Davies for bringing this legislative proposal forward today, and I'm really pleased to support it wholeheartedly. We've come quite a way in our awareness and in how we recycle. It was something I first got an understanding of—like many people my age—when I was 10 years old, following Blue Peter's recycling campaign. Wastesavers in my local authority in Newport really did lead the way here in Wales, but recycling now is really not enough.
I believe there's a real desire by people who want to know more about how they can change their habits and cut back on the amount of plastic they consume on a daily basis. We have to end the throwaway cultureand think about how we can reduce, reuse and recycle. Of course, individual habits cannot stand alone—some supermarkets are making a start with reducing plastic, while, in Italy, the Government are looking to introduce discounts on the price of food items and detergents sold without packaging, and to promote drinks, shampoos and other liquids to be sold from dispensers and reusable containers. You’re even able to get straws made of pasta, which offers a practical solution to what is now a most famous issue. These examples are innovative and welcome, and it’s this kind of thinking that we need to be looking at, from both the private sector and us as a Government, to help drive this change. And Huw and others in this Chamber today have mentioned some of the initiatives that I think we should be looking to take action on.
The fallout from single-use plastic is seen everywhere. In my constituency of Newport West, there are some great voluntary groups that work tirelessly to help make their local communities a better place to live, work and visit. Groups such as Pride in Pill, Celtic Horizons Litter Pickers, Rogerstone Routes and the Duffryn Dusters all regularly collect bags and bags of plastic. One of their biggest bugbears is plastic bottles. As such, they’re eager to see an establishment of a bottle deposit-return scheme. They're understandably frustrated by the length of time it’s taking, and this is a great idea, which is very popular and something that the public want to see, and I’d hope the Minister can give us an update in her contribution later. And, speaking to fishermen who fish on the River Usk, I know that plastic is a significant issue—it’s suffocating our seas, oceans, rivers and waterways.
I just want to finish by quickly mentioning sanitary products. Sanitary products are the fifth most common item found on Europe’s beaches—more widespread than single-use coffee cups, cutlery or straws. And, as Rhianon Passmore has said, I’d like to pay tribute to Ella Daish, who’s convinced Sainsbury’s to stop producing plastic applicators for its own brand of tampons. And she convinced Caerphilly council to buy only plastic-free menstrual products from the Welsh Government’s free school sanitary products. And it would be great to see all councils following suit. I know that Ella’s aim is for all period products to become plastic free, and I fully support Ella on this. So, there’s much more that we can do. We have a real opportunity here in Wales. Be ambitious, be bold, and I really hope Members from across the Chamber support this today.

Alun Davies AC: Like others, I’m very grateful to the Member for Ogmore for bringing forward this debate this afternoon. Presiding Officer, we remember the conversations and the debates we had about the 5p charge on a carrier bag. And, at the time, that was seen to be groundbreaking legislation. It led to a 71 per cent reduction in their usage, which had two impacts, of course: it changed public behaviour and it demonstrated the power of Government to change public behaviour and to drive change in the culture of behaviour. But, when we were doing that, of course, we thought we were groundbreaking, in the vanguard of environmental action at the time. But, since then, in the decade since those debates, we have seen how microplastics and plastics are not just disfiguring our environment, but poisoning our ecosystems. I remember hearing Sir David Attenborough saying that, wherever he goes now, wherever it is—be it in the mountains and moors or on the coast—there is discarded plastic everywhere. And he says about the UK Government:
‘The government hasn’t a clue, by the time they act it will be too late.’
And that’s a standing rebuke for Governments across the world. We’ve seen that Greenpeace has found that even the remotest parts of Antarctica are now contaminated with microplastics, not only ruining one of the most pristine environments on the planet, but those tiny shards of plastic, less than a twentieth of a millimetre wide, quite often, are mistaken for prey by tiny marine animals. The microplastics make their way up the food chain, potentially inflicting harm on larger animals, such as seabirds and whales, as well as getting into our own food chain via shellfish. In this way, we have reached a crisis point. We need now to see Government action again and Government taking the lead.
I believe we produce more waste in the United Kingdom than we actually understand. We’ve seen studies that say we produce 50 per cent more plastic waste than projected. And we in Wales, quite rightly, champion high recycling rates, but I want to be clear, and I believe that our responsibility for the waste we create goes far beyond local recycling centres.
We have seen already how waste from Wales has ended up in the pacific ocean. It is completely unacceptable that we allow any waste at all from this country to pollute our seas and oceans, and unacceptable that we dump our waste on the poorest people on the planet. We should not be doing that. I believe that we need to take action and I believe that the Welsh Government needs to take action as well. We've seen popular demands, growing demands, from across the globe for action, and growing demands in Wales—a popular demand for change. I've seen, and I spoke earlier of, how the Welsh Government was able to drive behavioural change, but we're also seeing how change is being driven by people understanding the impact of our behaviour on the planet. How many of us can forget the image of a turtle wrapped in a plastic sack, or the photo of the stork wrapped in a plastic bag? The BBC brought us those images. If we do not use our power to legislate, then these images will keep coming back, but then it is us who will be guilty for allowing that to happen.

The Deputy Minister for Housing and Local Government, Hannah Blythyn.

Hannah Blythyn AC: Diolch, Llywydd. I want to thank Huw Irranca-Davies and all of the Members who've been part of bringing forward this debate today. I think the strength of cross-party support of speakers in the debate is testament to the non-partisan passion in this area, a passion that I share both personally and politically. I think the interest to tackle the use of single-use plastic within here, within this place, is also reflective and perhaps partially driven by what I hear loud and clear across the country, whether that be from our eco-schools or from our communities who are taking action to become single-use plastic free. There is an enormous amount of commitment and goodwill across the country to drive a change in the amount of plastic that we use and clamp down on single-use plastic and I want to strongly support that.
At the outset, I want to make it clear that I'm certainly singing from the same hymn sheet as Members who are calling for us to prevent or reduce unnecessary or non-recyclable plastic products and packaging. I'm keen to go further and faster in this area, but firstly I want to just, only briefly, touch on what we've done and what we're doing. We can be proud, as Members have said, of what we've done to date. Wales was the first country in the UK to introduce a charge on plastic carrier bags in 2011, and we're a global leader when it comes to recycling, with plastic amongst the materials and others collected from every household in Wales.
We've recently launched a consultation, which, effectively, requires businesses to separately collect materials for recycling for collection, just as householders in Wales have been doing for years. The result of this will be more high-quality segregated materials that are available for recycling and less waste going to landfill. But, as you've heard here today, to really tackle plastic waste and pollution we know that we must go beyond recycling and reduce waste in the first place.
Huw Irranca-Davies's opening talked about a broader approach in terms of banning some single-use plastic items. That's why we want to bring forward a ban or restriction on the sale of the 10 most commonly littered single-use plastic items. This will include straws, stirrers, cotton buds, single-use plastic cutlery, and expanded polystyrene food packaging and drinks containers.
To maximise the impact we have, we've been collaborating with other Governments to bring about wider change and have already announced that we are taking forward reforms to the packaging regime through extended producer responsibility and developing proposals to produce a deposit-return scheme alongside the UK Government.
I want to make it clear to Members that, whilst we actively work with counterparts across the UK in both the UK Government and Scottish Government on legislative proposals and needed an Order to take action on single-use plastic—we hear from businesses and consumers that this would make things easier across the piece for everyone—likewise I want to reassure Members that we are not afraid to go it alone if needs be, and we're committed to working in parallel.
The UK Environment Bill that was laid yesterday contains provisions that will enable the development of new regulations in Wales for game-changing initiatives such as extended producer responsibility, deposit-return schemes, charges for single-use plastic items and environmental labelling and standards for products—all avenues that I'm committed to pursuing. However, as I said, whilst we're committed to working collaboratively, in a cross-border fashion, we're also not afraid to go it alone where needs be and to take forward things that we can do on a Wales-only basis as well.
I started, Llywydd, by setting out my support for Members' calls for action on single-use plastics, and our aim as part of this is to move towards the more circular economy in Wales, where waste is avoided and resources are kept in use as long as possible. This not only cuts down on waste but is a key part of the action needed on climate change, and, on the day we had our first climate conference, it also brings broader and bigger economic opportunities as part of the transition to a low-carbon economy. And I know that manybusinesses are already shifting away from single-use plastics.
Members have raised the possibility of introducing a single-use plastics Bill, and it's right that we should aim to prevent or reduce unnecessary non-recyclable plastic products and packaging where we can. I am committed to taking action to reduce our consumption of single-use coffee cups and other single-use cups for beverages. A range of options are currently being actively explored—options that include possible levies, charges or taxes. I think Members have recognised that, unfortunately, while we want things to happen as quickly as possible, obviously there are processes to go through and some things can be quite complex, and we need to make sure that, if we do things, we do things in the right way that doesn't have any unintended consequences. So, while these proposals are being worked up and finalised, I've asked officials to identify other measures and steps we could take to much sooner lead the way in Wales—steps that could build upon the many voluntary initiatives that have been developed by companies across the UK. For example, I think a couple of Members touched on the waste produced by major events or stadiums, and while we've seen a shift in terms of good and best practice from some of the events and activities that Members have mentioned within this debate today and we've seen strides forward, perhaps we need a little push to take that work over the line now.
As a Government, we agree that addressing the challenge of plastic pollution must be central to our efforts to reduce waste and a comprehensive and ambitious approach is needed. I've already mentioned to Members previously that we'll be publishing a new and comprehensive strategy for consultation later this year, which will build on our earlier progress on the 'Towards Zero Waste' strategy. It will set out a plan as to how to take further action on plastics and other materials. It will be a strategic, cross-sector approach that will address the issue of plastic pollution, but also other materials. As Members have raised today, the nub of all of this is our consumption of single-use materials as well. And what I want to show Members with this strategy is that we often talk about strategies being written, done and dusted and put on the shelf, but I'm keen for this to be much more innovative and be part of an active conversation and to provide a platform for visible action and milestones.
I know I need to come to an end, Llywydd, so just to round up, we've heard many ideas, a lot of expertise and there's a lot of enthusiasm in this area, and I'd quite like to bottle that and take it away, but I assure Members I'd do so in a reusable and refillable bottle. But, indeed, just to close, to reassure the Member, I want to say that I'm keen to look at how we establish a means to bring people together, to get us in a room and around a table to talk about these ideas and how we implement them and take them forward, and also, importantly, to create a mechanism to enable communities across the country to input to this. From what I've heard today in this debate and the work with stakeholders and citizens alike and within Government, I know that, collectively and collaboratively, we continue to lead the way in Wales to a more sustainable world and a future that works in the interests of our environment, our communities and our economy. Diolch yn fawr.

Huw Irranca-Davies to reply to the debate.

Huw Irranca-Davies AC: Diolch, Llywydd. Minister, thank you very much. Could I just begin by thanking my colleagues Delyth Jewell, Jenny Rathbone, David Rowlands, Rhianon Passmore, Llyr Gruffydd, Jayne Bryant and Alun Davies—

You only have a minute.

Huw Irranca-Davies AC: Oh, sorry—for all their contributions, because I think it's shown the Assembly at its very best in this quality of debate that we've had today, and I thank also those who have supported this who haven't spoken today as well. There's really strong cross-party support with a lot of common interest. Minister, if that helps give you support and encourages you to take to Cabinet proposals around legislation, if need be, but around other things we can do earlier, that would be absolutely excellent.
In my brief concluding comments, things that stand out here are this idea of a popular demand for change. The public want this as well as politicians. We should not leave this legacy of building plastics for future generations. And, as Llyr said, 'Come on, Llywodraeth Cymru.' But it's actually, 'Come on, Llywodraeth Cymrua ni hefyd, gyda'n gilydd'—all of us together, what we can do here. So it's a very encouraging response.
Can I just thank all those organisations who have thrown their support behind this as well: Friends of the Earth Cymru, Keep Wales Tidy, the Marine Conservation Society and members of Wales Environment Link, who have helped with research and debates for this? And can I say to the Minister, on the encouraging response that she's given, should the Government wish to co-develop the proposals going forward and the measures to make Wales a world leader on reducing single-use plastics, she will find us willing friends to do this? So we stand ready to help.

The proposal is to agree the motion. Does any Member object? The motion is therefore agreed in accordance with Standing Order 12.36.

Motion agreed in accordance with Standing Order 12.36.

7. Debate on the Equality, Local Government and Communities Committee Report: the Blue Badge Scheme in Wales: Eligibility and Implementation

That brings us to the next item, which is a debate on the Equality, Local Government and Communities Committee report on the blue badge scheme in Wales, on eligibility and implementation. I call on the Chair of the committee to move the motion. John Griffiths.

Motion NDM7161 John Griffiths
To propose that the National Assembly for Wales:
Notes the report of the Equality, Local Government and Communities Committee on the Blue Badges Scheme in Wales: Eligibility and Implementation, which was laid in the Table Office on 8 July 2019.

Motion moved.

John Griffiths AC: Diolch, Llywydd. I'm very pleased to open today's debate on the Equality, Local Government and Communities Committee report on the blue badge scheme in Wales. I'd like to start by thanking all of those who contributed to our inquiry, in particular those who participated in the numerous focus-group sessions we held across the country. I'd like to welcome the representatives from Knighton Access Group, who are in the public gallery today, and thank them for facilitating one of those meetings. Diolch yn fawr.
We held 12 across Wales, which attracted higher numbers of people than any of the previous areas of engagement work we have carried out as a committee. I believe this demonstrates the importance of blue badges—they really do provide a lifeline for our communities. Without them, many would struggle to access essential services, such as medical appointments, or struggle to live independently.
We made 19 recommendations in our report, 13 of which have been accepted fully or in principle. The committee agreed that I should write to the Minister ahead of today's debate to outline our further concerns around the rejection of some of the recommendations. I hope the Minister will be able to take these matters forward by alternative methods, as he suggests in his response.
I'm pleased that recommendation 1 has been accepted, and the Welsh Government has committed to undertaking a review of the eligibility criteria for a badge. We heard a lot of evidence around linking eligibility to qualification for welfare benefits. While this may be useful for some, there are many others who are disadvantaged by the automatic qualification criteria. That is why the process for further assessment must be fit for purpose, to ensure that those who need a blue badge, but who do not automatically qualify, are able to obtain that vital lifeline. I would like to ask the Minister to provide an update to the Assembly on the outcome of the review upon its conclusion.
Recommendation 2 was accepted in principle. The important message here is to ensure that people who receive a terminal diagnosis are issued a blue badge as soon as possible. It would be preferable if guidance could make the fast-tracking of applications mandatory, but I recognise the restrictions around doing so.
The committee is disappointed at the rejection of recommendation 4. This relates to exploring options for introducing a separate concessionary parking scheme for people who require swift access to amenities but do not merit a blue badge in their own right. The Minister favoured looking at such an arrangement in his evidence to us, mentioning a parallel process for a positive parking scheme that would capture a larger number of people. Therefore, we recommended that the Welsh Government explore options for introducing such an initiative.
The response refers to the need for a firm evidence base, and while we recognise that, the essence of this recommendation is to explore options. My letter asked that the Minister reconsider, and I note that his response says that the Welsh Government will discuss with the local authorities whether they would be amenable to the expansion of concessionary parking. We would appreciate an update from the Minister once those discussions have taken place.
I'm pleased that recommendation 6 has been accepted. We understand why general practitioners no longer have a formal role in the assessment process. However, many stakeholders felt it was important that when additional information from doctors or other professionals to support an application is made available, this should receive proper consideration.
We heard of the importance of all blue badge assessors understanding and applying the social model of disability. I appreciate the Welsh Government’s position that guidance issued to local authorities cannot specify that staff must be trained. However, unless it’s obligatory, how can we be assured that such training will take place?

The Deputy Presiding Officer took the Chair.

John Griffiths AC: Recommendation 8 is accepted in principle. We discussed with the Minister the need to involve those with lived experience in the assessment process. He was confident that when joint transport authorities are established, this would be a significant feature to advise on how service provision can be improved. We realise that provisions around the establishment of JTAs primarily relate to bus and taxi services, but the Minister assured us that there could also be a role in advising on the process of applying for a blue badge. We therefore recommended that the Welsh Government sets out how it envisages a role for those with lived experience of the blue badge system in the establishment of JTAs.
In the response, the Welsh Government states that it will look to the new regional bodies to have arrangements in place for working with service users, including badge holders. The committee would appreciate greater assurances as to how this will work. I would ask the Minister for an update as to how he envisages this being implemented and monitored.
Recommendation 11 relates to amending the Chronically Sick and Disabled Persons Act 1970, specifically around issuing statutory guidance. Inconsistencies in implementing the badge scheme was one of the main concerns raised by stakeholders and, indeed, the Minister told us that it was his first priority to ensure consistency across Wales. Yet the Welsh Government’s response is to reject, despite the Minister conceding in evidence to us that it would be more desirable to have statutory guidance in place. We are surprised and disappointed by the response. I note that the Minister’s letter says that officials will discuss the guidance with local authorities and, again, we would appreciate an update in due course.
The rejection of recommendation 13 is another area of concern. We know that the renewal process causes unnecessary worry for people, so we said that those suffering with a lifelong or deteriorating condition should be able to renew automatically, as their circumstances would not have changed. In rejecting this, the Minister referred to the blue badge digital service, which has been in operation since February, as a means of flagging whether a badge has been awarded for life. Can the Minister provide an assurance that this system is working effectively?
Our report referred to evidence we heard from Caerphilly County Borough Council who proactively contact those whose badges are approaching expiry. We welcomed this approach. Yet we heard informally from a stakeholder that local authorities were opting out of enabling the new system to issue reminder letters, as the onus was on applicants to reapply. It would be a matter of concern if this practice is widespread, and I would ask the Minister whether he is aware of these matters.
Proper enforcement is crucial to ensuring the integrity of the scheme, so I'm pleased that most of the recommendations in this area have been accepted, at least in principle. Recommendation 16 was that the Welsh and UK Governments work together to expand the range of penalties imposed on those guilty of misuse. I'm pleased that the response refers to an opportunity for an initial discussion to have taken place. However, I would be grateful for further details from the Minister as to how this will be taken forward.
Dirprwy Lywydd, in conclusion, as I've already said, the blue badge scheme is vital to enabling many people to live independently, and the prospect of being unable to have a badge causes a great deal of anxiety. These are important issues, and I hope the Welsh Government can re-consider some of our rejected recommendations to ensure the scheme operates as effectively as possible for all our communities across the length and breadth of Wales.

Mark Isherwood AC: Well, the social model of disability, developed by disabled people, says that people are disabled by barriers in society, not by their impairment or difference. Barriers can be physical, like buildings not having accessible toilets, or they can be caused by people's attitudes to difference. With that in mind, and as our report states,
'Blue badges provide a lifeline for a range of people in our society. Without them, many would struggle to access essential services such as attending medical appointments. Difficulty in visiting shops and using leisure facilities diminishes their ability to lead independent lives and they could become more isolated and confined to their own homes.'
After accepting our recommendation 1, that the Welsh Government undertakes a review of the eligibility criteria for the blue badge, the Welsh Government then qualified this by stating,
'Officials will consider and explore further research through joint working between the four UK nations',
where findings will inform the next steps, adding that,
'It cannot be confirmed whether the work can be funded within current budgets.'
As worded, therefore, this is not acceptance, and we need clarity accordingly.
Recommendation 4 recommends that the Welsh Government explores options for introducing a concessionary parking scheme separate to the blue badge scheme to meet the needs of those who require swift access to amenities, such as carers, those with incontinence problems and those suffering a temporary impairment expected to last less than 12 months, without impacting on the availability of parking spaces for those with mobility problems.
In rejecting this, the Welsh Government states that the firm evidence base required,
'Will be included within the review identified in recommendation 1',
i.e. raising the same concern identified earlier.
I have long been calling for temporary blue badges, after receiving correspondence from constituents over the years who have had temporary impairments, requiring them to depend upon mobility aids for limited periods because of an accident, operation, or occasionally other factors. Speaking here in 2016, I moved an amendment to defer the introduction of temporary blue badges because the Welsh Government’s amendment regulations didn't go nearly far enough and still disabled too many people. Although these blue badges available to people with temporary impairments that last more than 12 months but aren’t permanent were, therefore, a step in the right direction, I stated that they were,
'In breach of the Welsh Government’s publicly stated commitments to person-centred support, to independent living and to the social model of disability.'
Age Cymru told me then that,
'We agree with you that there should be flexibility around the period for which the temporary badges are issued, and we deem that the duration of the badge in such circumstances should be based on the recovery time of the applicant’,
and Disability Wales said that,
'Blue badges should ideally have a more person-centred time limit to reflect individual impairment, rather than a one-size-fits-all period of one year’.
The Welsh Government rejected our recommendation 7, which recommended,
'That the Welsh Government updates its guidance to local authorities to clearly specify that all staff who undertake blue badge assessments are trained to understand and apply the social model of disability',
on the grounds that its guidance can only recommend and not specify. As our report states, Disability Wales highlighted inconsistencies in the knowledge and understanding of assessors across local authorities and said,
'We’re not entirely convinced about people’s competence to carry out those assessments. We haven’t got knowledge of what training those people have undertaken to come to those decisions.'
This issue was also raised by the National Autistic Society Cymru, who suggested that suitable training, including autism training, should be mandatory for those making decisions on eligibility for a blue badge under the cognitive impairment discretionary criteria. Unless the Welsh Government ensures lived-experience training for blue badge assessors, assessment errors will continue to fail people, as will its rejection of committee recommendations 9 and 10 that the Welsh Government put in place review and formal appeals processes for applicants to challenge an authority’s decision on a blue badge application.
Although Assembly lawyers stated that the Welsh Government can impose duties on a local authority to make arrangementswith a view to securing that its functions are carried outwith due regard to the need to meet the equal opportunity requirements, by amendment to the Chronically Sick and Disabled Persons Act 1970, the Welsh Government states that there is no capacity in the legislation programme for this Assembly term.I therefore conclude by calling on all parties to include a commitment to do this in their election manifestos for the next Welsh Parliament term.

Leanne Wood AC: This inquiry followed the work that my colleague Siân Gwenllianundertook when she was previously a member of this committee in highlighting some of the difficulties that were created by the poor drafting of the original regulations. Problems had arisen when it transpired that the Welsh Government was unable to clarify details when local authorities faced difficulties in implementing the scheme. So, I'm very pleased that our committee recommended that the Welsh Government updates its guidance to local authorities to ensure that there is clarity so that eligible organisations can apply for a blue badge in their own right. And, of course, I'm pleased that the Welsh Government has accepted this recommendation.
However, originally the Welsh Government rejected nine out of the 19 recommendations that were made by the committee, which is actually staggering. Sensing how bad a look that might be, they've subsequently agreed to accept in principle a further three recommendations, bringing the total number of rejected recommendations to just under a third of the total. The rejected recommendations include all staff involved in assessments being trained in the social model of disability and for the legislation to provide for a review process for people to be able to challenge a decision.
Now, how many times have we seen Labour Assembly Members in this place note the unfairness of assessments for disability when they're conducted by the Department for Work and Pensions? How many times have we recognised the importance of appeals against their decisions and the importance of ensuring that staff understand the needs and barriers that people face? We repeatedly find that there is a problem with the public sector as a whole when it comes to assessments of disabled people, and it's only when we have robust appeals processes and staff who are properly trained that we find that these problems are reduced. So, I'm disappointed that these recommendations have been rejected. And on the reason given—that you don't have the time to do it—well, the facts show that in this Assembly term, there have been fewer pieces of legislation than there were in the last Assembly term, so I don't accept that as an excuse. It's more a case of lethargy and the Government regarding this as a trivial issue it thought it had solved with its poorly drafted regulations.
I, and I'm sure many other Assembly Members too, meet plenty of people through surgeries, who make contact with my office—people who really need a blue badge. There are always more requests than the council can meet. Many councils seem to only be issuing a limited number of blue badges every year. Yes, I know that concerns about fraud have to be tackled and, yes, I know that land available for parking is limited, but we also have to make sure that Welsh citizens who may have illnesses, disabilities or mobility problems for other reasons are enabled to go out and live life as fully as they possibly can. We're all aware of the growing mental health epidemic that is linked to increasing loneliness. A blue badge can mean the difference between having a life or being a prisoner in your own home. So, I very much hope that the Government will reflect on that and recognise their responsibilities in terms of preventing mental ill health and loneliness whilst considering this blue badge scheme.

Dawn Bowden AC: Although I'm now a member of the committee, I wasn't at the time the inquiry was taking place, but I'd like to thank everyone involved with gathering the evidence and delivering the report on an issue that is important to so many people who use the blue badge scheme. Like other Members, I see lots of these coming through my office on a regular basis, and, actually, the staff in my office have been very, very successful in getting a number of appeals overturned and cases reviewed with the local authority. So, there is a process by which that can happen, but it can be cumbersome and can cause delays, and that's part of the reason I wanted to speak. Because, as often happens, when we get a report submitted like this, we will subsequently see bits of casework that relate directly to the report that was published.
So, I'm going to confine my comments just to a specific area that's been raised with me by a constituent, and it's an issue that's associated with recommendation 4, around the introduction of temporary concessionary parking schemes for certain short-term cases. Now, I realise that recommendation 4 has been rejected by the Government, but it has said it will include this in the review identified in recommendation 1, with consideration given to the Just Can't Wait card scheme. So, in that same review, can I ask you, Minister, to consider the associated issue that was raised with me by a blue badge holder in my constituency who had a delay in the renewal of his application? So, the constituent has suggested to me that where a delay occurs in the renewal of a blue badge, a temporary authorisation, similar to that available to those with short-lived disabilities, could be given until the matters needing clarification or any dispute over evidence are resolved, because, as things stand at the moment, they fall between the gap from the time that they're applying for the renewal until the time it's issued—they have a period where they don't actually have a blue badge. My constituent rightly argues that that would mean that individuals could maintain an acceptable level of mobility while they're waiting for the issue around the renewal to be resolved.
Now, I know that the committee didn't receive specific evidence on the point that I'm raising with you, and so it won't have taken evidence on it. So, I'm just raising it with you now, Minister, asking if you will look at that as part of your review to ensure that people don't fall through the gap when they're going through a renewal of an existing blue badge.

Caroline Jones AC: I thank the Equality, Local Government and Communities Committee for their report on the blue badge scheme in Wales. I want to place on record my thanks to the clerks and all those who gave evidence during the inquiry into the eligibility and implementation of the blue badge scheme in Wales. I joined the committee towards the end of the inquiry, so I would like also to express my thanks to the former members of the committee for their role during the evidence sessions.
I am extremely disappointed by the Welsh Government's response to our report and recommendations. They initially rejected nine of our recommendations, but have since reconsidered and accepted recommendations 2, 8 and 16 in principle. I would urge the Minister to accept the other six recommendations, particularly as their rejection contradicts the Minister's position during his evidence to the committee. In particular, the Minister's rejection of recommendation 11 is highly surprising, as, during his oral evidence, he stated that it would be more desirable to have statutory guidance in place. I believe this is one of our most important recommendations as it goes to the heart of the problems of the implementation of the blue badge scheme.
I'm sure every one of us in this Chamber has had contact from a constituent complaining about inconsistencies in blue badge applications—applications that should be accepted and would be if the applicant lived elsewhere. The blue badge scheme is a lifeline for those living with disabilities that make day-to-day living that much harder. The last thing our constituents need is local authorities failing to follow the guidelines and denying them their lifeline. Statutory guidance is the only way we will achieve consistency in implementation of the blue badge scheme in all parts of Wales. The Minister knows this and he admitted this in his evidence sessions. So, why then would he reject recommendation 11? The blue badge scheme is a national scheme and there is no room for local interpretation—

Nick Ramsay AC: Caroline, will you take an intervention?

Caroline Jones AC: Certainly.

Nick Ramsay AC: Like you and other AMs, I've received many representations on exactly what you just said—that there's an inconsistency across Wales in terms of the applications for the blue badge scheme. So, I thought that the recommendation for putting it on a statutory basis was a very good idea, so I'd also be interested in what response you get to that query.

Caroline Jones AC: Thank you very much, Nick. The Welsh Government must get over its reticence to instruct local government, for the sake of the thousands of disabled peoplelet down by the implementation of the blue badge scheme in Wales. The Welsh Government must accept all the committee's recommendations. We must ensure the blue badge scheme application process is fair, swift and efficient. The application process should be offering a lifeline, not yet another hurdle for disabled people. Minister, for the sake of our disabled constituents, please, please reconsider.

Jenny Rathbone AC: I was a member of the committee when this inquiry started, but I wasn't on it when the recommendations were drafted, so I'm very pleased to join in on the debate. I think there are several things we need to bear in mind. One is that the more we actually limit the use of cars because of public health issues around air quality or trying to make shopping centres more attractive to people, to pedestrians, we need to ensure that blue badges aren't being used fraudulently to get around these restrictions and to prevent them having to pay for the privilege of using their car on crowded streets. Because in parts of London, the blue badges are changing hands at premium prices on the black market because it allows drivers to park anywhere, and not have to pay to go into the centre of London. So, I think this is a significant issue. Certainly it is there. People with blue badges are advised not to leave their disabled badges visible in their cars, particularly overnight, because otherwise they're simply going to be broken into and the badges stolen. So, we need to ensure that that situation isn't allowed to develop in our cities.
I think that the review is important, to look at the eligibility criteria and to ensure that they're being used logically, so that if somebody is told that they're going to lose their sight in the next few weeks, clearly there is going to be a need for arrangements to be put in place quickly to ensure that their disability needs are going to be met. But at the same time, we have to ensure that we're joining up the dots. I think local authorities need to look at how the provision of a blue badge marries up with the provision of a disabled parking place outside somebody's home, because you can have a car but if you can't then park close enough to where you live, it can be a serious barrier to being able to use that disabled badge. I've got a constituent with an enduring physical disability whose parents are very keen to ensure that their daughter lives as active a life as possible, and this requires them taking her to after-school activities by car, as she would have great difficulty getting her wheelchair on and off a bus and then navigating her way to the venue of the activity. The narrow street where she lives is full of people who are blessed with enough money to have one or even two cars, and fortunately all the neighbours support their application for a disabled parking bay, but this continues to be denied on the grounds that the local authorities visit in the middle of the day, and they inform the family that there's no difficulty parking in the middle of the day—because everybody's used their cars to go to work. But this is not when they need to park. They need to be parking at the end of the day, and their child needs to be able to get into the house without huge complications.
I think, turning to those who cannot afford to have a car, it's disappointing the Welsh Government's rejected recommendation 8, to fast-forward the establishment of joint transport authorities, so that those with lived experience of disability can advise on the best way of meeting the needs of all disabled citizens. That includes those who don't have a car, have never learnt to drive, can't afford a car within their family, but still have disability needs that prevent them simply popping down the shop without having to think about it and make it instead into a whole-day activity. Disability scooters have transformed many people's lives, and it's always wonderful to see elderly people giving a lift to their grandchildren on their scooter. But I also wandered if the Government will give some consideration to the role of electric bikes, which are less unwieldy and can get around corners a lot faster, particularly in crowded spaces, than a disability scooter.
I’m also disappointed that you’ve rejected recommendation 16, because I think even disabled badge holders will contravene the rules. I never stop asking people to move away from the dropped kerb outside my constituency office to enable people in wheelchairs to cross the road. And they say, ‘But I’ve got a disability badge’, and I’m saying, ’You may have a disability badge, but just park a bit further down, so those in a wheelchair can cross the road.’ So, I think that there needs to be a much fiercer system of preventing people parking in disability parking bays who are not entitled to do so.

Vikki Howells AC: I’d like to start by thanking the Equality, Local Government and Communities Committee for producing what is a really excellent report. I’m not a member of that committee, but the issues it covers are of great concern to many of my constituents. And I’d go further to say that for a substantial period of time since I've been elected, helping constituents who've been denied a blue badge has comprised the largest single element within my casework, so I'm really pleased to be able to contribute to this debate.
I’d like to focus on the experiences of people within the Cynon Valley, noting how the report’s recommendations reflect the realities of their lives, starting with recommendation 1. Changes to the eligibility criteria that have occurred are to be welcomed, in my opinion, and as other speakers have said, blue badges are lifelines to enable their holders to access essential services, to enhance their choices and empower them to live independent lives.
It is right that the application process recognises other conditions and diagnoses—that blue badges are available to all who could benefit from them. But I was struck by the evidence given to the committee that this isn’t happening universally. For example, the National Autistic Society Cymru are quoted in the report saying that the potential benefits from including cognitive impairments hasn’t been truly recognised. And this is something that I have seen really strongly within my casework. I've dealt with numerous cases where people with anxiety and other mental health issues have been denied a badge. From my casework, I’d say that this group are disproportionately affected when there appears to be any move towards the tightening up of applications. These are debilitating illnesses that affect people’s ability to function socially, when a blue badge would really help the holder to get out and engage more.
I’ve also been approached by constituents with significant health issues that affect their mobility, such as chronic obstructive pulmonary disease. However, because they strive to overcome their condition, they can be affected because their level of mobility does not meet the eligibility criteria. Neither does it appear to take account of the fact that people with ongoing health problems feel better on some days than on others.
I also have a constituent who told me that they could receive one of the benefits that would automatically entitle them to a blue badge. However, their financial situation meant that they didn’t feel they wanted to apply for that particular benefit. But as a result of not applying for it, they lost out because their application for a blue badge was then automatically turned down. Now, this seems like a ludicrous situation to me, and I think we really need to get the eligibility criteria right.
Similarly, I would support recommendation 2. Some of the most heartbreaking, inexplicable cases that I and my staff have had to deal with have involved terminally ill applicants being denied a blue badge.
Recommendation 13—dealing with renewal—is also crucial. The most frequent reason for people to contact me, as I am sure is the case with other AMs, is for support when an application has been refused. In many of these cases, it has been a renewal that has been turned down, and constituents who had been affected in this way were people with serious, life-limiting conditions who had heldblue badges for many years, whose conditions had not got any better, but, despite this, had been refused the blue badge that they had relied upon. I'll give you just one example. A constituent of mine had a plethora of physical and mental health difficulties, and she'd been using a blue badge for over 20 years. She was denied a renewal on account of her not using a walking stick. The use of a walking stick was taken as evidence of walking difficulties. What wasn’t taken into account, despite lots of medical evidence that had been supplied from professionals who'd worked with her, was the fact that my constituent could not use a walking stick because she was recovering from breast cancer, had had a mastectomy, and had lost the strength that she needed in her arm to actually hold one.
Dealing with appeals, I’d also like to mention recommendations 9 and 10. I would like to see some form of formal appeal process. In Rhondda Cynon Taf, there is such a capacity for unsuccessful applicants to appeal, but many of the cases that I have dealt with are applicants who've been turned down on appeal before coming to me. So despite this process, I think there is still something that is going on.
To conclude, I feel we need to introduce twin principles of responsibility and clarity into this system. It's been more than a little frustrating, when I've raised constituent experiences, when Welsh Government have told me that the problem is how local authorities interpret the guidelines, and councils say the fault lies with how those guidelines are written. The recommendations the report sets out could introduce responsibility and clarity into the system, which will only benefit my constituents' experiences of the blue badge scheme.

Thank you. Can I now call the Minister for Economy and Transport, Ken Skates?

Ken Skates AC: Diolch, Dirprwy Lywydd. Firstly, may I thank the Equality, Local Government and Communities Committee both for their inquiry and for their report into the blue badge scheme here in Wales? Their report includes 19 recommendations, which I have carefully considered and reflected on. Some of these recommendations will require further work, research and discussions across the four UK nations, whilst others will be subject to early action by officials.
Dirprwy Lywydd, it was good to see the breadth of evidence from a range of parties received by the committee, and I was personally pleased to have been given the opportunity to contribute in order to emphasise how important this scheme is to those who rely on it. In fact, without the scheme, many of the 212,000 badge holders in Wales would be unable to access services and facilities, some would be completely homebound and isolated, and many others would lose their independence. Therefore, we must all take care to protect the rights of current and future badge holders, to ensure that they can continue to enjoy the benefits of the scheme in an environment where there is a finite number of parking spaces.
With respect to the committee's report, I turn first to eligibility. Many of you will be aware that only recently England has extended eligibility for a blue badge to include people with cognitive impairments, specifically people who are unable to leave home due to overwhelming psychological distress or because they are of considerable risk either to themselves or to others. Here in Wales, we've included people with hidden disabilities since 2014, and in particular people who need assistance with all journeys due to cognitive impairments. Wales should be proud to have led the way in recognising that hidden disabilities can have a devastating impact on people's lives and on their mobility. But from the evidence, it is apparent that more work needs to be done.
Wales can also be proud of how we treat eligibility. On a proportionate basis, more people in Wales are issued with a blue badge than anywhere else in the United Kingdom. In Wales, 6.8 per cent have a badge, whilst in Northern Ireland the figure is 5.3 per cent, in Scotland it is 4.5 per cent, and in England it is just 3.8 per cent. However, I do know that the committee questions whether we have gone far enough in extending eligibility. This is a difficult question and requires further consideration.
To that end, my officials have been holding discussions with the other three nations to share information about current eligibility to determine whether there are justified reasons for amending it. I believe that any further changes to eligibility criteria can only be made if there is a solid evidence base to support such changes. I do not wish to reduce the availability of parking concessions to current badge holders, which is nearly 7 per cent of the population.
Increasing the eligibility criteria in an uncontrolled way and not basing change on sound evidence could dramatically increase the number of badge holders, resulting in pressures on resources and access to dedicated parking concessions, which will undermine the operation and also the credibility of the scheme that we wish to protect. So, it's a fine balance, ensuring that the eligibility criteria in Wales are correct and the valuable parking concessions are protected.

Ken Skates AC: I now turn to the assessment of people applying to the scheme. I think every Member will be aware that it is for local authorities to decide who meets the eligibility criteria, but Welsh Government has developed tools to assist them in their duties. The national online service, the blue badge digital service, led by England, enables online applications and arranges the production and distribution of badges. Welsh Government also funds an independent assessment service. It provides advice and assistance to local authorities when they are unable to make a decision. However, not all local authorities in Wales are using the tools provided by Welsh Government. I have asked my officials to ensure that local authorities are satisfied with the materials and assistance that Welsh Government provide and to work with local authorities on developing any further tools or training. A working group of local authorities and stakeholders has been established, and the first meeting has been incredibly productive. A programme of work is being developed to address the recommendations of the committee's report.
Turning to enforcement, recent exercises in two local authorities have uncovered levels of abuse of the blue badge parking concession scheme that cannot be ignored. In Cardiff, over a period of 12 days between April and June, 15 badges were seized because of misuse. I've personally been astonished and disgusted by the behaviours of those abusing the scheme. Even more astonishing, in Bridgend, over two days of enforcement action, officers targeted a known area, resulting in 16 serious offences, with at least 10 of these progressing towards further enforcement action. I believe that enforcement is key to protecting the concessions for badge holders, and I'm committed to ensuring that further exercises can take place. Enforcement was, in fact, identified by the committee, who recommended that I report to the Assembly next year on the performance of local authorities, and I hope, at that time, we will be able to demonstrate further progress on enforcement across other parts of Wales. Jenny Rathbone, amongst others, rightly talked about the importance of enforcement, and I'd like to just take the opportunity to assure Jenny that we have accepted in principle both recommendations 8 and 16.
Turning to communication, ensuring that the blue badge scheme is respected and also understood will help in the fight against abuse, and the committee made a number of recommendations to improve communications. Work is already being undertaken to review leaflets and guidance associated with the scheme through a work group with local authorities and stakeholders.
The inquiry has brought this valuable scheme to the forefront and has proven to be a healthy reminder of the importance of this scheme, and the importance of controlling misuse. I'm confident, Dirprwy Lywydd, that my response to the committee's recommendations and the steps that I have outlined in my address will achieve a change that is fair for all. And my rejection of some of the recommendations should not, however, be seen as my willingness not to take action via alternative interventions. I've asked my officials to work closely with local authorities to strengthen consistency in their approach to handling rejected applications, and we'll also discuss with local authorities whether they are amenable to the expansion of concessionary parking and, if so, we'll provide support to determine whether there is an opportunity to do so. Officials will continue to monitor the use of current guidance and also look for opportunities to improve its contents and its use.
With regard to recommendation 13, we will, of course, check the effectiveness of the blue badge digital service and will remind local authorities to utilise this function. I'll also examine the specific point raised by Dawn Bowden concerning renewal.
Now, while several of the recommendations were noble in intention, through their implementation, there could be—there could be—adverse consequences that the committee has not been able to investigate, such as the possible consequences of significantly increasing the number of badges in circulation. But I am open to considering further recommendations if they are based on solid quantitative and qualitative evidence. And so, to that end, I will, of course, keep Members updated on discussions relating to recommendations 4 and 11.
Again, can I thank the committee for their inquiry and their report on the blue badge scheme, which benefits almost double the proportion of citizens in Wales as in England? All Members agree that the value of the blue badge scheme must be protected, and that is something that this Welsh Government is determined to do.

Thank you. Can I now call John Griffiths to reply to the debate?

John Griffiths AC: Diolch, Dirprwy Lywydd. I thank Members for their contributions. Mark Drakeford—sorry, Mark Isherwood—stressed—[Laughter.] It's very difficult to confuse the two, Dirprwy Lywydd—it must be an indication of tiredness, I think. Mark Isherwood stressed the social model of disability in considering these matters, and that's certainly something that came through loud and clear in the evidence that we took in our work as a committee. There's no doubt that that concept of the social model of disability—that approach—must underlie everything that takes place with regard to these very important issues. We know that it is the way that society organises itself, or doesn't organise itself, that's absolutely vital to the quality of life and the ability of people with disabilities to lead the independent life that they rightly aspire to. That really must underpin our consideration of all of these issues.
Dirprwy Lywydd, let me just reflect on the Government's response, which the Minister has just rehearsed and other Members have mentioned. As was said, initially, Welsh Government rejected nine out of our 19 recommendations. We made further points to Welsh Government by way of letter, as a committee, and then a further three recommendations were accepted in principle. We then wrote again making further points, and then, in a further response from Welsh Government, the Minister accepted that there may be other ways of addressing some of those matters.
So, although the committee was disappointed at the initial response, and remains disappointed that not more of the recommendations were accepted, I think it is fair to say that we have had engagement with the Minister and we have seen movement from the Minister, and, indeed, we've had further reassurance today. So, yes, the committee is disappointed, but we have had a dialogue and we have seen some progress.
With regard to Dawn Bowden's point on that particular matter, which Dawn is absolutely right in saying that we didn't have evidence on as a committee—so, where there is a delay in renewal it then takes some time to deal with the matter, in the interim period the badge could continue, allowing the badge holder to continue to enjoy the concessions that it brings. I hear what the Minister said in response and, as a committee, we look forward also to keeping tabs on that.
I think Jenny Rathbone raised some interesting matters in terms of badge holders themselves, perhaps, not always understanding the importance of their behaviour when it comes to disability and people—wheelchair users, for example—using those dropped pavements. Strangely enough, I met with a group from Knighton, who, as a group of people with disabilities—a user group—were very helpful with the committee's work in facilitating a focus group and continue to be keenly engaged. They, in fact, made that very point that Jenny Rathbone made—that it is, in fact, blue badge holders themselves who, in Knighton, too often park to obstruct dropped pavements, and they're continually reminding everyone of those issues.
So, we did talk about awareness-raising campaigns and communication, and, again, that's something that the Minister mentioned. We do need to continually make the appropriate points and try and ensure, as often as possible, that people do understand these issues and behave appropriately. There might be a role for television campaigns and wider awareness raising if we are to be as effective as we need to be on those points.
Dirprwy Lywydd, the Minister, I think rightly acknowledged the importance of these matters and getting the balance right so that we extend the benefits of the scheme as much as possible, but we're mindful of the fact that, if that was to go too far, it would diminish the value of the scheme to existing badge holders and those who will become badge holders under the current criteria. We are cognisant of that balance, and we look forward to the updates from the Minister so that we can assess further whether that balance is being struck appropriately.
Dirprwy Lywydd, I see that my time has expired. Let me just say in conclusion that this scheme really does matter because, as the Minister again pointed out, in Wales particularly, a high proportion of the population are blue badge holders. So, it's absolutely crucial that we get this scheme right. It does make a significant contribution to quality of life for those badge holders here in Wales.

Thank you. The proposal is to agree the motion. Does any Member object? No. Therefore, the motion is agreed in accordance with Standing Order 12.36.

Motion agreed in accordance with Standing Order 12.36.

8. Plaid Cymru Debate: Council Tax on Second Homes

Item 8 is the Plaid Cymru debate: council tax on second homes, and I call on Siân Gwenllian to move the motion—Siân.

Motion NDM7162 Rhun ap Iorwerth
To propose that the National Assembly for Wales calls on the Welsh Government to ensure that council tax is paid on second homes.

Motion moved.

Siân Gwenllian AC: Thank you very much, Deputy Presiding Officer. We've brought this debate forward today because we feel that we must get rid of an unacceptable injustice. I have been raising the issue of council tax on second homes for some time. The wording of our motion is deliberately open-ended. I know that the Welsh Government has been looking for a solution—I had a meeting with some of the officials of the Government back in the summer. But, unfortunately, so far there's no sign that anything is going to change. And I have to say I was very disappointed this afternoon with the response of the Finance Minister, who said that there wasn't a loophole in the system. To me, that was astonishing. Even though the motion is open-ended, I do propose a way forward and I'm looking forward eagerly to hearing the response of the Minister.
Although owners of second homes are among the richest people in Britain, in Wales they can use the system in order to avoid paying council tax. By registering their second property as a small business, second-home owners can avoid paying council tax by transferring to the business rate system. But, given that the rateable value of their property is low, 94 per cent of them are eligible for business rate relief. That is, they don't have to pay business rates either. But they are not businesses—they’re domestic homes. So, they don’t pay council tax and they don’t pay business rates, even though the owners do use our roads, our pavements, our street lighting, our drains, our public toilets and so forth. This is unjust, and that is why I am continuing to challenge this system. It is a scandal, and that’s why we have to find solutions and act in order to get rid of this injustice. It’s an issue of equality, and I can’t understand why Welsh Labour is allowing this to continue.
It is a problem that is increasing. There are 5.2 million people in Britain who are second-home owners by now, compared with 1.6 million just a few years ago, and research shows that nine of every 10 second-home owners in the UK are among the 50 per cent of the richest people in the country. But, in Wales, the second-home owners have found a way of saving money, a legal way—I’m not arguing about that; it is a legal way—but one that does create a great injustice and unfairness.
The problem is tied to section 66 of the Local Government Finance Act 1988. That Act allows second-home owners to move their property from the council tax system if they register their property as a self-catering property for part of the year. It is a problem across Wales, but, in areas where there are many second homes, that’s where the worst effects can be felt. There are 5,000 second homes in Gwynedd, which is the county with the largest number of second homes in Wales, and probably among the regions of the UK. However, nearly 2,000 people are on the waiting list for social housing in the county. Local people are being priced out of the housing market, creating a crisis in many of our communities. Gwynedd Council is eager to mitigate this problem and second home owners need to pay an additional premium on their council tax. This is happening in other parts of Wales given the powers that came into effect in 2014. In Gwynedd, the idea is to spend the revenue that's raised in this fashion to build affordable homes and social housing, and we genuinely need those kinds of homes. But, as I've just described, an increasing number of second home owners have found a way of not paying council tax. Up to 1,000 of the 5,000 second homes in Gwynedd have found this anomaly in the system.

Siân Gwenllian AC: On the other hand, my surgeries in my constituency are full of people who live in unacceptable conditions, in private rented sector homes that are damp, too small or difficult to heat, leading to fuel poverty. Families have to share their homes with parents, other relatives or friends. There is a major problem here. There is a fundamental unfairness in a situation where 2,000 people live in unacceptable conditions while second home owners are playing the system for their own benefit and avoiding paying council tax. A total of £1.7 million per year is lost in Gwynedd alone, as well as the premium, because of this, and that money could be very useful in the council coffers, money that could contribute to the building of appropriate housing for people in the county.
You could argue, by letting this happen, that the Welsh Government is putting money in the pockets of second home owners rather than using the funding to improve the lives of local people. It's vital that we do solve this problem. In my mind, the easiest, simplest and most transparent solution is to adapt section 66 of the Local Government Finance Act 1988. The Welsh Government has the power to do that by amending the criteria for self-catering units, as described in section 66. The principle could be established that all properties that are used as domestic properties continue to be domestic properties, even if they're used occasionally to raise additional income for the owner. Making that change would get rid of that loophole and that wouldn't affect self-catering commercial properties and tourism businesses because they're not part of section 66 of this Act. That's the easy solution, in my opinion. I'm looking forward to hearing whether the Minister agrees with that.
This afternoon, we'll also be discussing the problem of second homes more generally, and Llyr Gruffydd will expand on that. It is possible to use the planning system to tackle the increasing problem of second homes in our communities and the way that local people are priced out of the housing market locally. It is possible, for example, to use new categories within the planning system and define the term 'residential' to include the category of 'second home', and you can legislate that planning permission or planning consent are needed to change the use to a second home. That would give local authorities an opportunity to maintain a better balance within communities.
We need to do much more to help families who are being priced out of the market because of the increasing number of second homes, and I am pleased to know that Gwynedd Council is doing detailed research to find solutions to the stress that second homes are placing on local communities. But, in the meantime, what about getting rid of the scandal that arises in the wake of section 66 of the Local Government Finance Act 1988, and doing that once and for all? The Welsh Local Government Association agrees with Plaid Cymru on this, under the leadership of the rural affairs forum, which includes nine Welsh councils. And Jeremy Corbyn has announced plans to impose a new levy on second homes that would mean that owners would pay twice as much council tax. He says, and I quote:

Siân Gwenllian AC: 'A housing market that works for the many, needs government action to ensure everyone has a place to call home.'

Siân Gwenllian AC: UK Labour saying that; Welsh Labour failing to solve the scandal of the owners who have found a way of avoiding paying council tax on their properties. I've offered a solution. There may be other ways of creating fairness, but certainly this needs to be resolved urgently.

Mike Hedges AC: First of all, can I say that there are people in Welsh Labour who agree with you? I'm one of them.
There are two things we know: the rich are very good at producing schemes to avoid or reduce the amount of tax they pay—the classic is corporation tax, which has become a voluntary contribution by multinational companies; and, we need taxes, both local and national, to pay for the services we use and need. The two most hated taxes by the rich have been council tax and non-domestic rates. These have been historically unavoidable, hence the demand for rate reduction schemes continually, and the turning of second homes into holiday properties using the rate reduction scheme to avoid or substantially reduce the amount that would have been due as council tax.
I welcome that the Welsh Labour Government is currently reviewing the impact and use of the discretionary powers for local authorities to apply council tax premiums and whether the new legislation is operating as intended. As part of the review, local authorities have been asked to provide any evidence they may have that private second homes are being incorrectly listed as self-catering properties. The difficulty is that many second home owners let friends and family use them, thus technically meeting the available-for-rent criteria, because they're letting them to people—sons, daughters, cousins—but I would suggest that they're not actually charging the rate that they should be.
Owners of self-catering accommodation must provide evidence that their property meets the criteria. The Valuation Office Agency determines whether a property is categorised as domestic or non-domestic. We have no control over the Valuation Office Agency, as an executive agency sponsored by Her Majesty's Revenue and Customs. As it is non-devolved, it is independent of the Welsh Government. What I do not understand is if these people are saying that these are second homes and they're renting them out, not as properties for rent, why HMRC are not chasing them for the income. I know what rental values are and a week in most of Wales at peak periods is well in excess of £1,000. These people, if they're renting it out for the period they're saying, they should be making a minimum of £12,000 to £15,000, and therefore HMRC should be chasing them for it. And I'm disappointed that HMRC aren't chasing them, because they should be paying tax on their income.
Ratepayers must continue to satisfy the non-domestic rates criteria for each property for each 12-month period. Otherwise, unless the property falls within any other category of non-domestic property, the property is likely to be considered domestic and would be subject to an assessment of liability to council tax. Where a property is listed as non-domestic self-catering accommodation, but does not meet the statutory criteria, the owner could face a backdated council tax demand. And I wonder how many of those have been made in Wales so far.
I am told that the Welsh Government is alive to the issue of second home owners switching the status of their property from council tax to non-domestic rates in an effort to potentially benefit from rate relief schemes. Perhaps the Minister could tell us how many backdated council tax demands there have been. As I said earlier, HMRC ought to be chasing these people. If they're renting them out for up to 70 days, then that should be generating a substantial amount of money.
Second homes also reduce the number of properties available for local people. They make young people leave the area as prices are forced up and cause the closure of local schools as the number of children left to attend them decreases. We know that owners of second homes who fulfil the criteria for determining whether a property is non-domestic may be liable for non-domestic rates. They may also be eligible for small business rate relief and therefore not have any liability after the small business rate relief is applied. The small business rate relief is fully funded by the Welsh Government, so why should we worry? Because all the non-domestic rates revenue raised in Wales is pooled and distributed to local authorities. When that money doesn't come in, all the rest of us in Wales are not getting as much as we would from that pool. This means that non payment in Gwynedd affects people in Swansea.
Last week, I checked the rental prices of holiday accommodation in Gwynedd during August. I could not find a property where the annual council tax would be less than two weeks' rent with a 100 per cent surcharge, or one week's rent without a surcharge. If it's a house or flat, they should pay council tax. I'd again call on the Minister to remove the small business rate relief scheme from houses and flats. It's a different solution to the one that Siân Gwenllian has put forward, but it is another solution—whilst keeping it for hotels and guesthouses. It's the right thing to do, it's good for income, good for the area, and it's a good use of public money. I urge the Welsh Government to take action. I don't care if you take Siân Gwenllian's suggestion or mine, it's just we need to take some action and do it.

Llyr Gruffydd AC: We are aware now that there are over 24,000 second homes in Wales, with almost 5,000 of them in Gwynedd, and over 4,000 are in Pembrokeshire. In 2017-18, almost 40 per cent of the homes sold in Gwynedd and a third of the homes sold on Anglesey had been sold as second homes. So, essentially, we are talking about a broader economic problem here, aren't we? Large parts of Wales, particularly those areas with the highest level of second homes, are also among the areas with the lowest levels of income and salary. So, the reality is that these are areas where the housing market doesn't represent the local economy.
Of course, local authorities have means such as sections 106 and 157 to try to control the sale of homes and put in place measures to seek to balance these elements, but it’s clear that they are inadequate or, for one thing, we wouldn't be having this debate today. And, therefore, I just want to spend some time looking at what other regions and countries have been doing and whether there are any lessons that we could learn in tackling some of these issues.
Switzerland, of course, has very strict rules. They are at the extreme end of the spectrum. There, the home has to be located in an area that is designated as a holiday area before it can be sold as a second home, and then you need permission from the canton before you can purchase that home. In addition to that, the cantons and boroughs can set their own rules. They can limit the sale of second homes to homes that are already second homes. They can restrict the size of those second homes. They can even limit the number of second homes that any one person can own. In 2012, the people of Switzerland agreed in a referendum, as they tend to do regularly in Switzerland, to set a restriction on the number of second homes that could exist within the country. So, they have chosen a particular path.
Guernsey have taken another approach. They have taken strict measures to control the housing market there. The Government there operates two housing markets: an open market for just 7 per cent of homes on the island, and the rest is restricted to local people or people who have a work permit. And there are different models in countries such as Catalonia, France, Germany, and so on and so forth.
Now, closer to home of course, there is a specific set of regulations in London.

Llyr Gruffydd AC: Regulations in London since the 1970shave been different to the rest of England in relation to the management of the use of open-market housing as second homes. The regulations in London used to prevent the use of residential properties in the 32 boroughs of London as temporary holiday lets, and this was done through regulations that required planning permission to change the use. The main purpose of this, of course, was to protect the housing stock in London.
In 2005, legislation came into force to slacken those rules, and over a short period of time, there's been an enormous increase in the number of properties being let as short-term holiday lets, as you can imagine, with over 70,000 properties listed now as short-term holiday lets. That's been the subject of a discussion at the House of Commons recently, with concerns regarding the impact that has on housing stock and on local communities, et cetera. One of the issues there is the difficulty in enforcing the limit of 90 nights in a calendar year, which is something I'm sure we can relate to in the Welsh context as well.
Now, currently, the planning Bill in Scotland is proceeding through Parliament there, and it includes a proposal to reform the legislation so that the use of a house for a short-term holiday let requires planning permission, where the planning authority designates an area as a short-term holiday let management area.
So, as I'm illustrating, there are plenty of creative ways,some more extreme than others, that we could be looking at. Now, Siân Gwenllian has clearly outlined quite a straightforward answer to a very specific issue, but there is, as I say, a whole raft of approaches in dealing with the broader issues around second homes and the effect they have on communities, on housing markets and the availability of housing that we need to be looking at. I think the Welsh Government needs to show the same creativity in addressing some of the issues that have been highlighted in this debate.

Mark Isherwood AC: During the second and third Assemblies, widespread concern about the impact on tourism businesses of the then Welsh Assembly Government proposals to change the qualifying criteria for self-catering accommodation was expressed by trade bodies including the Welsh Association of Self Catering Operators and Welsh Tourism Alliance members. Further to this, Welsh Government legislation recognised that some dwellings could be used either as second homes or as commercially let self-catering holiday accommodation.
The Non-Domestic Rating (Definition of Domestic Property) (Wales) Order 2010 stated that to qualify as self-catering accommodation, a dwelling must be available to let for at least 140 days in a 12-month period and actually let for at least 70 days. The Order was revised and strengthened in 2016. The qualification periods were retained, reflecting the public consultation responses.
As the Equality, Local Government and Communities Committee report on empty properties, yet to be debated but published last Thursday, states,
'the criteria for self-catering accommodation strike a balance'.
As our report also states,
'Dwellings which meet the criteria may be recorded on the non-domestic rating list rather than the council tax list. Dwellings which do not meet the criteria, including second homes kept mainly for private use, are liable for council tax. Valuation lists for council tax and non-domestic rating purposes are compiled and maintained by the Valuation Office Agency. The Agency is independent of the Welsh Government.
'For a property to be defined as self-catering accommodation and moved to the rating list, the owner must provide evidence to the Valuation Office Agency that the property meets the criteria...If a local authority believes a property should be listed for council tax and has evidence of this, it is obliged to share such information with the Agency and the Agency will consider the evidence.
'Self-catering accommodation which falls below a specified rateable value may be eligible for Small Business Rates Relief...The proposals, including whether there should be any additional exceptions, were also subject to public consultation.'
Even within this criteria, I have been asked by farming families from Flintshire to Anglesey, investing to diversify their businesses, to represent their concerns that the 70-day occupancy rule is too long and inflexible for a short holiday season, especially for a new-start self-catering business.
The Housing (Wales) Act 2014 added discretionary powers for local authorities to apply premiums of up to 100 per cent to the council tax bills for long-term empty properties and second homes where authorities can set the premium at any level up to 100 per cent for either or both. The decision to apply a premium is a matter for individual local authorities. Gwynedd, with almost 5,000 second homes, introduced a 50 per cent premium on second homes as, oddly, did Flintshire. Conwy introduced a 25 per cent premium. However, Gwynedd warned that many of these properties would be subject to attempts to avoid the additional tax if second home owners decided to let out to customers for more than 70 days a year. Responding to me in committee, Gwynedd Council’s representative stated,
'I know that this idea that a lot of our empty properties are owned by people from outwith Gwynedd isn't necessarily complete, because many people within Gwynedd own these vacant homes, as you say, because they've inherited property and they want to do something with it.'
When I said to him,
'Some second homeowners are very, very wealthy, some less so',
and asked
'to what extent is the circumstance you're describing genuine, where somebody might actually be letting the property for more than the eligible period during the year for affordability reasons? And to what extent is it trying to bypass the cost?',
he replied,
'the transfer of domestic council tax properties into business premises in Gwynedd is significant…We're talking over 1,000 at the moment that have transferred. We're talking about hundreds every year. And what they need to do is to assure the valuation office that the property has been available for 140 days and has been let for 70 days, and they can then transfer it'.
He added that
'about 98 per cent in Gwynedd—have small business rates relief.'
So, he said the loss to the public purse in the tax take is in the millions. So, working with the valuation office, the Welsh Government must therefore give attention to this perhaps inevitable consequence of its legislation.Gwynedd did warn them. However, as I evidenced earlier, they must penalise neither the contribution made by genuine self-catering businesses to our tourism economy, nor those second home owners who feel forced to generate extra income on affordability grounds who are not super wealthy and who are playing by the rules.

Rhun ap Iorwerth AC: Will you take an intervention?

Mark Isherwood AC: I've just finished.

Rhun ap Iorwerth AC: You haven't; you had a few words to add.

Mark Isherwood AC: Literally my last words.

Carry on—quickly.

Rhun ap Iorwerth AC: Very, very quickly, do you think that there's a loophole that needs to be closed?

Mark Isherwood AC: Sorry, could you repeat that?

Rhun ap Iorwerth AC: Do you think that there is a loophole that needs to be closed? I'm trying to gauge from your speech whether you think there is or not.

Mark Isherwood AC: We have to start establishing whether this has been properly monitored and enforced, and, if so, then look at this further. But I suspect that this isn't being properly monitored and enforced, and that's where we need to begin.

Rhun ap Iorwerth AC: Thank you.

Mark Reckless AC: The Local Government Finance Act 1988 section 66 is very complex. There have been all manner of changes to it, and I'm concerned that an assumption made by Plaid Members, and potentially also by Mike, is not correct. I don't believe that there is this carve-out for self-contained self-catering accommodation provided commercially. I think that comes from subsection (2), which is the hotels, B&B carve-out. So, essentially, to avoid council tax, you either have to meet subsection (2), or in Wales, subsection (2BB). And when subsection (2) says,
'which is not self-contained self-catering accommodation provided commercially'
that is a double 'not', because it goes back also to the 'property is not domestic property' at the beginning of that subsection. And I think what we're discussing here should be (2BB) rather than the hotels, B&B carve-out. Mike.

Mike Hedges AC: Thank you. I'll just put on the record again what I said. I said, 'Don't give domestic rate relief on residential properties, whether they're rented out or not'.

Mark Reckless AC: Yes, Mike, you did come up with a different solution. I accept that, but I think you did also mention the carve-out, as we'd heard earlier, before. I don't think any of us are proposing a hotel, B&B change to what subsection (2) says, and I think it's important to recognise subsection (2B) and that reference to non-self-contained self-catering accommodation provided commercially just—

Darren Millar AC: Will you take an intervention?

Mark Reckless AC: No, I want to carry on, actually.
It just applies to the hotels and B&Bs. The problem we have is essentially a lot of these issues go back to when council tax was introduced and there was a 50 per cent compulsory discount for second homes, and at that point, when business reliefs for small businesses were much smaller—both in Wales and England, they were the same at that time—there was a concern that second home owners were getting that 50 per cent discount instead of paying the business rates. That's now changed.
We had this Order in 2010—fine—but we updated it in 2016 and didn't take account of the changes that HMRC had made to the furnished holiday lettings regime announced at the end of 2010 and applicable for income tax from 2012 to 2013. And they made a very sensible change, which I think we should also make in Wales, and I'm perplexed as to why it hasn't been made and why Rebecca answered the question as she did earlier. Since HMRC looked at this and thought whether being let for 70 days actually was a commercial undertaking—if someone just had their second home, quite well-off, liked to have a second home, but would just let it out for 10 weeks just so they get the tax thing, was that a sufficient threshold? And they concluded 'no' and they said, 'Actually, you have to let out for at least 15 weeks', which is the 105 days. I think it's that bit we should be focusing on. It's very difficult to enforce on how much it's available for. It's very easy to say that it's available or to advertise it at a high rate, or someone asks and then you don't take the booking. How do the tax authorities know? Whereas, actually, the 10 or hopefully 15 weeks where you're renting it out to someone else as an occupation and you have to have income and payment to show it, that can be easily checked. So, what I would encourage Welsh Government to do—and I hope that Plaid Cymru would see this at least as an improvement on the status quo—is to adopt those HMRC rules for the furnished holiday lettings where they allow people to offset the interest and have other advantages that they don't allow to normal, longer term lettings.

Darren Millar AC: Will you take an intervention?

Mark Reckless AC: I will take the intervention now.

Darren Millar AC: I appreciate what you're saying and I think there's some merit in having a discussion about how to take that forward. The one other category of accommodation that we haven't yet introduced into this debate, of course, is holiday caravan accommodation. I live in an area where holiday caravan tourismis a very important part of the economy. One of the problems and challenges we have there is that, with extended seasons, many people are using those holiday caravans as their main residences, and that also is then giving rise to costs and burdens on local authorities, for which they are not recompensed.

Mark Reckless AC: The Member’s put his point on the record. I need to complete the point I was trying to make to conclude my argument, which is, yes, as the motion says, if it’s a second home, you should pay council tax—that’s appropriate, and you shouldn’t have an exploitation of a loophole. However, if the tax system is designed to say, actually, if it’s not a second home and you’re really having it on a holiday lettings basis and you’re genuinely doing that commercially, and, as per HMRC, it is available, genuinely, for at least 30 weeks a year, and your use is incidental for the remainder, and genuinely rent it out for at least 15 weeks, then that strikes me as a reasonable hurdle to clear to say, 'Actually, this is a holiday letting. It’s occupied for much of the year. People are there spending money in the local area. I’m paying my income tax on that according to HMRC rules. It’s fair and appropriate to say it is that rather than, actually, a second home I’m disguising to avoid council tax.' But if we are to say that, I really think we need to move to the stricter HMRC FHL rules that have applied since 2012-13. It would also make it simpler, because there’s then one system you get for both your council tax exemption and the HMRC rules. And I don’t understand why Welsh Government would continue having this much laxer thing, which I think is properly described by Plaid as a loophole.

Rhun ap Iorwerth AC: We know what negative impact second homes can have on the housing market. It can push people out of the housing market as prices go up. We know that it can push young people out of their areas as they’re unable to purchase homes. And we know that it’s an increasing problem: one house in every 10 in Ynys Môn is either vacant or a second home, and as many as four in 10 in areas such as Rhosneigr. We have certainly, as a party, been supportive of the premium on council tax for second homes—a premium that can be used to pay for building more homes, so it works on numerous levels. But we’re talking here about a loophole that means that not only do people not pay the premium, but they also avoid paying any tax at all. We heard the finance Minister saying earlier that she doesn’t believe that there is a loophole. The First Minister, when I raised this a year ago, said that there was no loophole, but, sorry, when wealthier people who can afford a second home legally manage not to pay any tax at all, then that is a loophole, and it costs a great deal to communities and to local authorities.
We know what’s happening: the owners of second homes transfer the home from the council tax system to the business rates system. They can do that very easy, it would appear. The threshold is far too low, and I am very doubtful—. If I can just read from an article from The Telegraph—and this is the case in England, but it is just as relevant to Wales—and this is from July of this year:

Rhun ap Iorwerth AC: 'How to pay no council tax on your second home—saving thousands of pounds a year'.

Rhun ap Iorwerth AC: I used the word 'loophole'. There is another word:

Rhun ap Iorwerth AC: 'A trick that allows second-home owners to register their properties as "holiday homes" and pay less tax—even if the properties are not let out to tourists—has soared in popularity since a rule was changed two years ago.
'If a homeowner makes their second property available to let as a holiday home for at least 140 days a year, it can be classed as a small business.'

Rhun ap Iorwerth AC: —and so on, and so forth. It’s a trick and it’s being encouraged here in The Telegraph, and we know that this loophole is being used by the owners of second homes. What’s very worrying for me is that the evidence demonstrates that this is on the increase. If I could just mention the figures that we’re dealing with here, in Gwynedd, up to December of last year, there were—let me find the figure—421 properties that had transferred from the council tax regime to the business rates regime. That’s 421 by December, as compared to 282 in the full financial year previously. So, the direction of travel is very clear here.

Mark Reckless AC: The Telegraph article and the provision mentioned there does actually only apply to England. It is (2B) and it's incredibly loose—it just says you need to intend to let it for 140 days. In Wales, at least, we then say, 'And you have to have done so—had it available for the last year—and you then actually have to do it for the 70 days.'So, it's better than the English liberalisation, but still I think the HMRC 2010 105 would be a much better and more sensible cut-off.

Rhun ap Iorwerth AC: And I did point out that it was an England model, but I do think it is relevant to Wales, because what we are seeing is, in reality, people looking for ways of showing that they let their properties for 70 days a year, trying to look for ways to show that they are available for 140 days a year. Frankly, most people would consider you should be able to have a property available 365 days a year, if it is genuinely a property that is available for let.

Rhun ap Iorwerth AC: The losses to local government are clearly very substantial. There is a survey that I wish to refer to relating to a survey of seven councils in Wales, which have seen losses, estimating that we are, on average, looking at band D properties—losses of £5 million in council tax in one year. On Anglesey, one of the areas where there is the highest number of second homes, it's £1 million. Now, bear in mind that £1 million accounts to 2.5 per cent on council tax in an area such as Anglesey. There is a loophole, and I very much hope that the Minister will reconsider the denials that we have heard from her, and the previous First Minister, that there isn't an issue that needs to be tackled.
What we need to see, and what I hope to hear from the Minister now, is that the Government is going to accept that there is an issue that needs to be resolved here, and whatever model we use, whether we increase the threshold, or we turn to the model described by Mike Hedges, or what we're proposing, and what was outlined by Siân Gwenllian, then the Government does have to show its intent in tackling this, because it's our communities that are suffering, and our young people particularly who are being forced out of those communities.

Thank you. I call on the Minister for Finance and the Trefnydd, Rebecca Evans.

Rebecca Evans AC: Diolch. I really do welcome this debate this afternoon, and I thank all Members for their comments. And I think that the contributions that we've had really speak to the complexity of the issue that we're trying to grapple with this afternoon. Welsh Government does support the motion, which recognises the vital role that council tax plays in contributing to the funding of local services here in Wales. Our local authorities have worked hard to continue to deliver the services that their communities need, despite the challenges that have been presented by a decade of austerity, and challenges that I don't seek to underestimate, and which persist, despite the Government having protected local government from the worst effects of cuts imposed on our budgets.
But it is right that all households who have the means to pay council tax do so, and make a financial contribution to the services provided to their communities. And this applies to all households, whether they own or rent their home, whether their property is their only home, or whether they live there for only part of the year. We also have to ensure that households who do not have the means to pay receive effective support and are treated with dignity and respect.
We do have a comprehensive national framework in place, to ensure that local authorities are able to collect and, if necessary, enforce the payment of council tax. And the responsibility for the collection of council tax rests with individual authorities, and they have a number of powers at their disposal to help them with this. Local authorities have well-tested procedures for ensuring they're able to collect the tax effectively and efficiently from households who can afford to pay.
The Valuation Office Agency also has a vital role to play in ensuring that all properties are accurately listed for council tax and non-domestic rates purposes. And I think Wales does have an enviable record in terms of collecting council tax. Our average collection rate is higher than that in England and Scotland, and, of course, we can't be compared with Northern Ireland where they don't have a comparable council tax.
Collection rates in Wales increased to over 97 per cent when we introduced our council tax reduction scheme in 2013-14, and they've been maintained at that high level ever since. Some authorities achieve higher collection rates than others, and those are for reasons unrelated to the nature of their council tax base or local demographics, and we've been working closely with authorities to ensure that they share good practice and learn from each other.
I think the publication of the council tax protocol earlier this year, which was developed in partnership with local government, was a key step in terms of our efforts to make council tax fairer. The powers to charge council tax premiums on second homes and long-term empty properties are discretionary powers, and they were introduced to assist local authorities in managing issues within their local housing supply. It's important to note that Wales is the only part of the UK that has given authorities these powers in relation to second homes.
They're intended to be used by local authorities in conjunction with other powers and responsibilities for housing, planning and economic development, amongst others, to take account of local issues and variations. It's for individual authorities to decide whether to apply the powers, and they're best placed to understand the local patterns of housing supply and demand, and how these fit with their local planning and development priorities.
In deciding whether to introduce a premium, each authority needs to make a full assessment of all of the possible impacts. The national framework for the collection of council tax strikes a balance between the interests of individual householders, local communities and our economy. It provides a framework within which each authority can take account of its local circumstances and the needs of different stakeholders, and reflects factors that may be significant in one area but not another.
It's important to note that we did consult widely before introducing the powers, and we also consulted widely on the exceptions to the premiums and the exceptions to our permanent small business rates relief scheme before introducing the new legislation for each scheme. The idea that Mike Hedges has described about removing the ability to access the small business rates relief scheme from any residential properties was one of those ideas that was considered during the putting together of this permanent small business rates relief scheme. But it was discounted at that time because it was thought that it would be burdensome and, potentially, have unintended consequences.
I do want to get this right. This is one of the reasons why, in the tax policy work plan, which I launched at the end of last year, I did make very clear that the work plan for the year ahead would be to consider new approaches to deterring tax evasion and artificial avoidance, and improving compliance across all of the Welsh taxes, including measures to tackle evasion and avoidance of non-domestic rates and monitoring the implementation of new legislation to ensure that it's operating as intended and doesn't create opportunities for avoidance.

Mark Reckless AC: Rather than simply focusing on evasion and avoidance, isn't the issue one of 'What's a second home?' versus 'What is a genuine commercial lettings business?' If we don't want to tax that on the same basis, why allow that to be one if people are only letting it for 10 weeks a year? Why do you think that's sufficient, or at least why did the Order think it sufficient in 2016?

Rebecca Evans AC: Well, these are issues that we're exploring, in terms of the work that we are doing with local authorities to explore how they have been using premiums and what their experience is of houses moving onto the rating list for access to small business rates relief and so on. Part of that work is involving asking local authorities for the individual experiences that they've had. Potentially, a response might be to give local authorities the power to decide how many days are appropriate for them to apply in their local areas, because we know that this picture varies very much across Wales. We've heard about some of the specific challenges in Ynys Môn and in Gwynedd, whereas those challenges just don't manifest themselves so much in other parts of Wales. So, it's an idea that I'm actively exploring at the moment as we look towards the future of local taxes in the round, so both non-domestic rates and council tax—we're exploring the short, medium and long-term future for both of those taxes.
The distribution of second homes, as I say, in Wales is very varied. So, even within local authorities with a higher than average number of second homes, or percentage of second homes, the presence can be very much focused and highly localised in particular communities. We do recognise the challenge that those second homes and empty homes can present to the supply of affordable housing within our communities, and that's why we're working closely with local authorities and other partners to meet our target of delivering 20,000 more affordable homes and to deliver the recommendations from the recent independent affordable housing supply review.
Our efforts are supported by our social housing grant programme, and we're investing £138 million this year to provide grant funding for affordable housing to build new properties or renovate existing properties. We're investing a further £127 million in our housing support grant to help address the housing and housing-related support needs of individuals, and alongside that we're also investing £90 million over three years in our innovative housing programme, to test how we can build the homes of the future more quickly and with high standards of design and performance. And we've established an empty property enforcement team, which is supporting local authorities to tackle empty homes. So, council tax premiums were never introduced as a way of raising revenue, but almost 18,000 long-term empty properties and second homes are now paying premiums this year, and this is generating millions in additional revenue for these authorities. We haven't prescribed how they should be using this extra funding, but we are encouraged to see that a number of them are using it to help meet their local housing needs.
A very small number of local authorities have suggested that second home owners are avoiding paying council tax premiums by being listed as self-catering accommodation, and I do understand those concerns. We've heard those concerns described this afternoon. The reality is that transferring to the rating list is not avoidance, and local authorities do benefit from non-domestic rates income as well as council tax, and, of course, where a business is eligible for small business rate relief, the Government does fund that rate relief in full, to the benefit of local authorities. So, it can't just be a case of switching to one list by choice; there are some criteria that must be met, and the question that we have to grapple with is, 'Have we got those criteria right?' So, those are the things we're thinking about in terms of whether or not our legislation is operating as intended.
I've described earlier on today the role of the VOA, during questions this afternoon, and the fact that I'm very keen that local authorities alert the VOA if there are cases where they believe that a property is incorrectly being allocated to that list. But I recognise the local tax system isn't perfect. No tax system is, and that's why we are working through that programme of short, medium and longer term reforms to improve the effectiveness and fairness of local taxes and the wider local government finance system. I look forward to bringing forward a statement to the Chamber in November that sets out the work that we're undertaking in that regard. I think we've made some really significant strides recently in terms of making council tax fairer, and I'll be providing a further update on that. But I'd just like to thank colleagues for what has been an important debate, and I think that there's plenty for us to continue discussing as we move forward.

Thank you. Can I call Siân Gwenllian to reply to the debate?

Siân Gwenllian AC: Thank you very much, and thanks to everybody who has contributed to this debate. I think it was Llyr Gruffydd who tried to move us away from this specific issue in question, and thank you for doing that. There are broader issues, of course, than the ones that we have been discussing today, and it is possible to use the planning system in an effective way in order to create a better balance within our communities, and to allow communities to work against a situation where there are too many second homes pushing local people out because the prices are going through the roof. You only need to look at some of the communities in Gwynedd and Anglesey to see the reality of that situation, and there are other countries—Switzerland, Denmark, Northern Ireland as well, and then Guernsey and London—where there are rules within the planning system that can be used to tackle the broader problem. And I am looking forward to seeing the fruit of the labours by Gwynedd Council into this situation.
In terms of the specific issue that we’ve been discussing today, I do thank two contributors for their ideas. I'm very happy to be discussing other solutions, different to the one that we’ve proposed here today—removing business rates relief from second homes, and, yes, that’s one way ahead, or using HMRC rules. I’m very open to that, but I’m not the Minister. The Minister needs to take this issue seriously, and, unfortunately, I do feel this afternoon that we haven’t been convinced at all that there is an understanding of the complexity of the situation, and an understanding of what exactly is going on, and an understanding of this specific loophole that exists in the system. I’m very disappointed about that. I was hoping that today we would be able to have at least some kind of indication that there was a solution that was going to be found. The only chink of light that I could see is that there was a description there somewhere of artificial avoidance. Now, to me, that’s a loophole, that’s another term for ‘loophole’—that’s what artificial avoidance is. I greatly hope that this issue does get some attention from the Government.
The trick that Rhun ap Iorwerth referred to—the premium itself is what has caused this, to a certain extent. Yes, people are trying to find a way of not having to pay the premium and then looking for tricks in order to avoid paying any tax at all. The former First Minister talked about a radio advertisement that he heard about a company that was trying to provide advice to second-home owners about how to avoid paying council tax. It’s terrible when we reach a situation of that kind, because the funding or the money that’s lost from the system is very valuable funds for the local authorities, which could be used to create affordable homes, social housing, homes that are needed within our communities.
So, I do greatly hope that there will be a rethink on this and that there will be some serious consideration of how we resolve this problem. What we got from the Minister, unfortunately, was a description of the council tax collection framework and a description of what’s happening, and I have no confidence this afternoon that the Government is going to try and tackle this, despite the contributions of everyone in this room today.

Thank you. The proposal is to agree the motion. Does any Member object? No. The motion is therefore agreed in accordance with Standing Order 12.36.

Motion agreed in accordance with Standing Order 12.36.

10. Short Debate: A best friend on and off the street: Challenging the ‘no dogs’ policy at homeless shelters and accommodation

Which brings us on to the short debate, and I call on Jack Sargeant—. If you're going to leave the Chamber, can you do so quickly, then, please?
So, we now move to the short debate and I call on Jack Sargeant to speak on the topic he has chosen. Jack.

Jack Sargeant AC: Diolch, Dirprwy Lywydd. I'm very pleased to lead this short debate, focusing on a barrier that many people face when they try to get off the street and receive the support they so desperately need. For me, personally, especially if I've had a difficult day, whether that's in work, personal circumstances or whether it's my football team losing, there are few better things than being welcomed home by my dog, Joseph. Now, who is going to look after Joey if my family and I go away for the weekend is often an issue we face. Unfortunately, that's the reality every single evening for someone sleeping rough or someone who is homeless.
One person sleeping rough on our streets is one person too many. Rough-sleeping is sadly evident in all major towns and cities, but, unlike in the past, it is now also increasing in all of our local communities and villages. This is not acceptable and, in my view, it is not inevitable. Decent housing should be a basic human right in a rich country like ours. As the Minister for Housing and Local Government said in her statement last week, the Government's own statistics show that demand on services in increasing, with over 10,000 households presenting to local authorities in 2018-19 as at risk of being homeless within 56 days and 11,000 presenting as already homeless.
A country is judged on how it treats its most vulnerable, and I'm afraid to say that, in too many areas, we are failing people who are homeless. It's why last year I decided to spend an evening on the streets of Chester, along with the team from Share Shop, and as well I joined, on the streets of Cardiff, my colleague Bethan Sayed to sell TheBig Issue.

Jack Sargeant AC: Both of these experiences showed me the importance of community and the importance of not being a bystander. The worst part of those experiences was having people walk past you looking down; the sense of isolation was awful. We also know that mental health and loneliness are particularly rife amongst those most vulnerable who find themselves living on our streets. For many, owning a dog is the only means of contact they'll make, and a source of strength to support them through their night. They could be the sole light of someone's existence.
Dogs on the street, whether you agree with it or not, are here to stay. That's why drawing on the Hope Project, led by the Dogs Trust, is so important for the context of this short debate. Sadly, most accommodation providers in the UK still operate a 'no dogs' policy, meaning that homeless dog owners are denied access to the shelter and support they so desperately need. It's a self-defeating policy, which means providers aren't able to open accessible nor offer support to the very people that they should be trying to help. The Hope Project works with hostels and housing providers to encourage them to accept clients with dogs. The Dogs Trust is working in partnership with Homeless UK to provide a directory of dog-friendly hostels. Currently, less than 10 per cent of hostels in the UK are dog-friendly, meaning that many dog owners are denied access to that shelter and support simply because they have a pet.
Across Wales, only eight hostels operate a dog-friendly policy. Eighteen of our 22 local authorities have no dog-friendly hostels at all. I'm very grateful to The Wallich, Tresillian House, The Ambassador YMCA and the Salvation Army, all of which allow pet dogs into their accommodation. Across the border in England, the situation is just as bad. According to the Hope Project, only one hostel operates a dog-friendly policy in the west midlands. The picture in Northern Ireland is similar, with only one dog-friendly hostel listed in the entire country, based in Belfast. And, in Scotland, there are two throughout the country, both based in Edinburgh.
Now, some will say that the person looking for accommodation should just give away their dog. Now, Deputy Llywydd, I could never do that, and that is a decision they definitely should not have to make. There are many benefits to accepting dogs into hostels, not just for the owners and the dogs themselves, but for staff and other residents. When homeless people are forced to choose between their dog and a hostel place, most will, understandably, choose to stay with their dog, as their dog is most often their best friend, their companion. The bond between any dog owner and a dog is a strong one, but it will never be more so than with that of homeless people.
By ensuring we open up hostels to dog owners, we can ensure we are giving people access not only to the shelter, but all the help, advice and support a hostel can give them, and that's the very thing we are trying to achieve. This would mean that staff working in dog-friendly hostels could help homeless people who wouldn't usually engage with those services. Talking to someone that's homeless about their dog, engaging in that conversation, could also lead on to other conversations where staff might be able to help and support in other ways. Staff at dog-friendly hostels across the UK say that having dogs at their hostel lightens the atmosphere and makes the hostel feel more homely.
Now, whilst dogs provide that much-needed friendship and companionship, we know that their health can be impacted by the conditions in which they live as well, and that could be the case on the streets or in shelter. So, that's why the veterinary scheme is also another part of the project, which provides free veterinary treatment to dogs whose owners are homeless or in housing crisis. Dogs who are part of the scheme are entitled to free flea and worming treatments, vaccinations and microchipping, and the Dogs Trust will also fund most additional necessary treatments that the dogs may need. The scheme runs in 113 towns and cities across England, Northern Ireland, Scotland and Wales, and I'd like to pay tribute to all those local veterinary practices, charities and other homeless organisations who make this type of support possible.
Deputy Llywydd, I'm very grateful that, in a statement last week, the Minister mentioned Housing First, an issue that I brought to this Chamber last year.She's right that having a housing first policy in Wales means that people can secure permanent, secure accommodation where pets are welcome and can turn it into a home. But I'm also acutely aware that, whilst having a housing first policy is obviously where we want to be, and there's some fantastic work going on, people are still having to use temporary accommodation where 'no dogs' policies exist. So, in my mind, something needs to be done now to deal with these issues in temporary accommodation and not just rely on Housing First.
Temporary accommodation provided by the local authority is often sourced from the private rental sector, and often 'temporary' can mean several years in reality. Crucially, this, along with the 'no dogs' policy, causes a broken system and blockage in the system. If a homeless person is allowed their dog in a hostel but not at the next stage of temporary accommodation, then they will be reluctant to move on. If the only option is to give up their pet, they won't, and they will very likely end up back on the streets. The blockage in the middle of the housing process, essentially facilitating bed blocking at hostel level, is something that needs to be addressed by the local authority, perhaps with assistance or incentives from the Government, who have the ability to adapt the guidance for future housing duties.
So, moving forward, what can we all do? Personally, I'm looking forward to meeting quite a number of groups and people with an interest in this issue over the next few weeks and exploring exactly what I can do beyond this debate to influence the Government and others. I also think the Government must focus on securing the 'move on' pathways and crucially ensure that no-one who refuses temporary accommodation because they will not accept pets has their housing duty discharged, because this traps them in a cycle of homelessness and it also traps their beloved pet.
In closing, and before the Minister replies to this important debate, I did want to play a video commissioned by the Dogs On The Streets charity, but I don't think the 90 seconds that we are allowed out of the five minutes would have done it enough justice. DOTS, headed up by Michelle, currently operates weekly in London, as well as running regular services in other major cities across the UK, and it has a view to expand further. With a fully equipped mobile veterinary surgery vehicle, allowing ease of access to dogs in need, DOTS ensures all the essential items and services are provided for free each and every week, from food provisions to new harnesses and leads, plus training and grooming sessions. The video tells us the story of Damo and his dog Gypsy and why this issue I've brought in front of the Chamber today is so very important. So, in the words of Damo, 'Everyone needs a companion.'
Finally, Deputy Llywydd, let's change what I and so many others see as a major injustice, not only to people that are homeless, but to their dogs too. Diolch yn fawr.

Thank you. I call on the Minister for Housing and Local Government to reply to the debate—Julie James.

Julie James AC: Thank you, Deputy Presiding Officer. I'd like to thank Jack Sargeant very much for raising this important issue in the Chamber today. I wholeheartedly agree that, for many people forced to sleep rough on the streets of our towns and cities, their dog or other animal is a crucial companion to help them cope with the situation they find themselves in. Their dog may be the only constant and dependable factor in their life. The dog will never have let them down, it's trusted and loved and offers comfort in a world where, for many, it can seem as if the world has ceased to care about them. As Jack said, pets can also make the difference between success and failure when a housing solution is found, helping to increase the chances of accommodation being sustained in the long term when they are welcomed in that accommodation.
I absolutely agree that a person's dog should not be a barrier to them coming into services and it's completely unacceptable that this is sometimes the case. I am aware that, increasingly, many of our hostel emergency provisions across Wales do cater for companion pets. However, in the majority of cases, this also quite rightly includes a risk assessment and can be determined at the discretion of the landlord or on-site project manager. I appreciate that that risk assessment in itself is a deterrent to some people who need to access shelter and services. But an allowance must be made and flexibility must be provided to ensure we are meeting the needs of individuals, be that someone with a pet, a couple seeking joint accommodation, or someone keen to avoid contact with drink or drugs.
However, we also need to recognise that emergency accommodation and hostels are not homes, as Jack also pointed out. We will not genuinely be meeting the needs of any individual until we find a long-term suitable housing option for them, regardless of how good our emergency accommodation might be. As I set out in my statement last week, and in my response to the homelessness action group's first report published yesterday, I'm very clear that our approach needs to be one of rapidly rehousing people into suitable long-term homes that meet their needs. Members will know that we're rolling out the Housing First approach in Wales, as Jack also referred. We've invested £1.6 million this year alone, which will provide support to over 100 complex rough-sleepers. These individuals will be supported into long-term accommodation—in some cases, their first home in a considerable number of years—and then offered the wraparound support they need to make a success of that new home.
A key principle of Housing First is choice and control for the individual. So, if someone who has a pet on which they rely as a trusted companion has been identified as needing support under the programme, they will be supported into sustainable accommodation that accepts their pet.
The Government’s strategic policy statement on homelessness sets out the policy principles on which our cross-Government work on tackling and preventing homelessness will be based. So, they are: the earliest and most effective prevention; ensuring tackling homelessness is a public services matter rather than merely housing; person-centred support; homelessness legislation being the last line of defence and not the first; and services and practice informed by co-production and ensuring those with lived experiences play a pivotal part in shaping our services.
Our ambition is clear: prevention should mean early, primary, and secondary prevention and that in the rare instances where homelessness cannot be prevented, it should be brief, with individuals and households supported back into accommodation quickly and in a way that is most likely to succeed. This is about ensuring we accommodate people in the right homes, in the right communities, with the right support—be that from friends and family or from more formal support services—to give them the best possible chance of success. And, of course, that right home may well mean one where their dog or other pet is also welcome. However, the right support might also involve mental health, substance misuse, primary care, community safety and housing services all working together—multidisciplinary teams supporting individuals to address their needs.
There is no absence of hard work, will and dedication across statutory services, third sector and charities to the cause of ending rough-sleeping. However, in the face of growing numbers and increasing challenges, I’m asking everyone to accept that we need to find a different way to tackle this issue and to overcome it once and for all. That’s why I've asked that action group to work independently and make recommendations against four key questions.
Their first report, which was published yesterday, looks specifically at rough-sleeping. The report makes a number of recommendations for immediate action and others for the longer term. I was clear in my response yesterday that I accept them all in principle. I was also at pains to ensure that, as a Government, we match the action group’s pace and commitment. I hope colleagues will agree that the actions we have set out in response to that first report demonstrate clearly our commitment to working differently, listening to experts and acting swiftly and decisively.
The report and our response are informed by research and lived experience. Assertive outreach will be at the heart of our response as will genuine collaboration across all organisations working in the sector, be they statutory, third sector or charity and church groups. The focus will be on finding routes to long-term sustainable housing outcomes for individuals.
We will invest in our national network of outreach workers to ensure that they are empowered and supported to be assertive, flexible, and innovative in the quest for long-term housing solutions for the people they engage. To assist them, we are also intent on facilitating and increasing local multi-agency networks. We intend to explore how a personalised budget approach might help to better meet the needs of individuals and enable front-line workers to respond quickly and flexibly.
We will be making additional funding available to those local authorities with the highest levels of rough-sleeping to support them in delivering against the action group's recommendations. There will also be funding to ensure emergency provisions of suitable quality and variety to meet the differing needs of rough-sleeping populations, including the issue about their pets. But this isn't about increasing the number of emergency beds available and needed, but about ensuring that emergency beds meet the needs of those approaching them. We're also committed to bringing together housing providers in those same areas in order to identify and maximise all of the available temporary and longer term housing. All housing providers must understand and embrace the role they need to play to help us tackle and prevent homelessness.
We sit here on the precipice of what may be a defining period in this country's history, the result of which may be an economic crisis that could push significant parts of our society even closer to the brink of homelessness. We must make supporting our most vulnerable members of society a priority not just in words, but in deeds. We must concentrate our efforts on long-term solutions for those who find themselves without a home, and at the same time on stemming the flow of families and individuals, who, for whatever reason, find themselves unable to sustain that home. Emergency and hostel accommodation are important, yes, but overall we need policies and practices that lead us to a future where they are not needed and where every single person and their pet has the home that they need longer term. Diolch.

Thank you.

11. Short Debate: The importance of animal welfare to promote Wales's image

Item 11, which is the short debate under the name of Andrew R.T. Davies, has been withdrawn, and therefore that brings today's proceedings to a close. Thank you.

The meeting ended at 18:50.

QNR

Questions to the Minister for International Relations and the Welsh Language

Mick Antoniw: Will the Minister make a statement on the Wales for Africa programme?

Eluned Morgan: The Wales for Africa programme is part of our international relations work and promotes an outward-looking Wales that is informed, engaged and globally responsible. The programme focuses on establishing links and partnerships to support and help improve the social, economic and environmental wellbeing of sub-Saharan African nations.

Bethan Sayed: What representations has the Welsh Government made to the UK Government in relation to the Israeli settlements in the West Bank?

Eluned Morgan: Welsh Government has not made any representations to the UK Government because the UK’s position on settlements is clear. The UK consider the settlements as illegal under international law, present an obstacle to peace, and threaten the physical viability of a two-state solution.

Dai Lloyd: Will the Minister make a statement on developing the tourism industry in South Wales West?

Eluned Morgan: South-west Wales is an outstanding visitor destination and I am delighted that our industry barometer showed that the region had a strong summer season in 2019. We have continually invested to improve the quality of the local offer, and are committed to continuing to grow tourism to this area.